Illegal substitution situation

[Duffman]

I had a disagreement with a fellow official doing youth ball earlier this week, and was looking for some clarification.

I was administering a throwin after a time out from the end line as new trail. After getting a thumbs up from my partner I put it in play. Team A inbounds it, and A1 dribbles into the front court. He attempts to pass to A2 when B2 tips it out of bounds. As I jog over to the throw in spot A1 says to me "they have six". Sure enough I see one player walk off the court and sit on the bench and count five still on there.

As this is a 5th 6th grade church league neither coach was interested in pursuing it, both essentially said no harm no foul, and we put it in play and kept going.

Inbetween games, and after giving my partner a semi-serious toungue lashing for his inability to count and giving me a thumbs up (something we did pre-game for), we discussed whether or not we should have issued a T for illegal substitution, and who would get the T.

My partner thinks we couldn't have done anything even if the coaches had wanted to as we didn't notice while the ball was alive. I was most certain that 10-2 indicated that we could call a T if we noticed prior to the ball becomming dead and live again. Which was correct?

Further, assuming that the player on B legally reported during the time out and entered the court how would you access the T? Am I correct in thinking since the player entered legally the player illegally participating would be the player that didn't leave and would be bench personnel, therefore the T would be an indirect against the bench?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Am I correct in thinking since the player entered legally the player illegally participating would be the player that didn't leave and would be bench personnel, therefore the T would be an indirect against the bench?

Negative. More than five on the court is a team technical foul (10-1-6).

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Negative. More than five on the court is a team technical foul (10-1-6).

Gotcha, thanks.

[Duffman]

So my next question is can we penalize the team for violating if it's discovered during a dead ball. The case book specifically addresses situations in which its discovered after the end of a game (which happened in a college game this year) but makes no mention of discovering it during a dead ball.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Duffman

IMy partner thinks we couldn't have done anything even if the coaches had wanted to as we didn't notice while the ball was alive. I was most certain that 10-2 indicated that we could call a T if we noticed prior to the ball becomming dead and live again. Which was correct?

Neither. Live ball / dead ball has nothing to do with this. See 10-1-6 Penalty

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Neither. Live ball/dead ball has nothing to do with this. See 10-1-6 Penalty

bob jenkins: How about some help with these situations. My local IAABO interpreter tried to get some guidance from both IAABO, and the NFHS, on these and came up empty handed.

NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.

Someone posted this NCAA interpretation on the Forum a few months ago. Can it help us with a NFHS interpretation? Or does it make it more confusing?

NCAA bulletin: Rule 10-2.6 requires that the sixth player participate when the ball is alive. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize this technical foul. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge (Rule 10-2.6, 2-13.2 and 5-7.7).