Can't find it in the rule book - Help

[Wellmer]

A situation happened in a game last night that I worked and a fellow official disagreed with my assessment of the rule. I could not locate it in the rule book to backup what I thought was the correct ruling. Here it is.

Visiting team calls a time out as the Home team is preparing to shoot two free throws. After the 15 second warning buzzer sounds, a member of the visiting team checks in at the table. We correctly do not allow her to enter the game at this point. This is where the disagreement takes place. I say she can enter after the ball becomes alive, namely after the first free throw is attempted. My partner says that since she wasn't there before the 15 second warning buzzer, she cannot enter until the after the clock starts. I told him he is getting that confused with a player that has been subbed for and then wishes to reenter. She is not allowed to until the clock has started, then she can go to the table to reenter. I cannot locate the rule that says this sub can enter the game after the ball becomes alive, namely after the first free throw. Someone tell me where its located in the rule book, case book, etc. This is NFHS rules if that matters.

[SoInZebra]

You are correct. Rule is 3-3. The only restriction this rule places on subs is the requirement for a player who has been withdrawn to wait until the clock has properly started before he can reenter. In your scenario since the player failed to report to the table prior to the warning horn for the timeout, he is able to sub at the next available opportunity which is the next dead ball. In the OP this dead ball occurs after the first free throw.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

A situation happened in a game last night that I worked and a fellow official disagreed with my assessment of the rule. I could not locate it in the rule book to backup what I thought was the correct ruling. Here it is.

Visiting team calls a time out as the Home team is preparing to shoot two free throws. After the 15 second warning buzzer sounds, a member of the visiting team checks in at the table. We correctly do not allow her to enter the game at this point. This is where the disagreement takes place. I say she can enter after the ball becomes alive, namely after the first free throw is attempted. My partner says that since she wasn't there before the 15 second warning buzzer, she cannot enter until the after the clock starts. I told him he is getting that confused with a player that has been subbed for and then wishes to reenter. She is not allowed to until the clock has started, then she can go to the table to reenter. I cannot locate the rule that says this sub can enter the game after the ball becomes alive, namely after the first free throw. Someone tell me where its located in the rule book, case book, etc. This is NFHS rules if that matters.

I think this casebook play is on-point:

"3.3.1 SITUATION B:

A time-out is granted to Team A with play to resume by administration of a free throw. A6 reports to enter after the timer's warning signal has sounded. Since A6 has reported too late to enter, could he/she enter if: (a) either team is granted a time-out; (b) the resumption of play is delayed because a player is injured getting into position for the free throw; or (c) Team A is willing to "buy" A6's way into the game with a technical foul?

RULING: Permissible in (a) and (b), but not in (c)."

[Raymond]

You are correct but there is no specific case play that covers your situation. Rule 3-3-1c covers substitutions during free throws. The substitute meets those requirements. The ball became live with the first free throw as you said and the sub had properly reported to the table before the 2nd free throw. The time-out is no longer relevant.

Ask your partner this, in this situation would he deny a sub who reported to the table after the first free throw ended and before the 2nd free throw was administered?

[Wellmer]

Bad News Ref, That's exactly what I asked him. He wasn't going to let her in after the 2nd free throw either. He was positive the clock had to run first. It was a blowout game so I wasn't going to argue with him. We work again tomorrow night in a sub district final so I wanted to act like I knew what I was talking about. Thanks for the feedback.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

I say she can enter after the ball becomes alive

That is not correct. The ball being live has nothing to do with anything. The substitute checked in too late to late to be able to enter the game right then. The substitute must wait for the next time that substitutions can be made. That can be before or after the ball becomes live again.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cobra

That is not correct. The ball being live has nothing to do with anything. The substitute checked in too late to late to be able to enter the game right then. The substitute must wait for the next time that substitutions can be made. That can be before or after the ball becomes live again.

Yep, another TO would do it. Or a TF. Or an injury.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

Bad News Ref, That's exactly what I asked him. He wasn't going to let her in after the 2nd free throw either. He was positive the clock had to run first. It was a blowout game so I wasn't going to argue with him. We work again tomorrow night in a sub district final so I wanted to act like I knew what I was talking about. Thanks for the feedback.

This makes me sad.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

Bad News Ref, That's exactly what I asked him. He wasn't going to let her in after the 2nd free throw either. He was positive the clock had to run first. It was a blowout game so I wasn't going to argue with him. We work again tomorrow night in a sub district final so I wanted to act like I knew what I was talking about. Thanks for the feedback.

He's working in a sub-district final and doesn't understand when he can/can't bring in subs? Not good.

[Zoochy]

I posted that same play about 5-6 years ago. My partners did not know the correct procedure.This partner has now done many post season work, high profile Holiday Tournaments as well as working the State final game. She was rewarded as the top female official in the State.

[letemplay]

Wellmer, ask your partner next time (gulp, in pre-game prior to a sub-district final) what he would have done in the original sitch if the Home team ran a sub to the table in between free throws. Your telling me he's gonna hold visitors sub there but let home player enter?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Wellmer, ask your partner next time (gulp, in pre-game prior to a sub-district final) what he would have done in the original sitch if the Home team ran a sub to the table in between free throws. Your telling me he's gonna hold visitors sub there but let home player enter?

Uh um...see below.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You are correct but there is no specific case play that covers your situation. Rule 3-3-1c covers substitutions during free throws. The substitute meets those requirements. The ball became live with the first free throw as you said and the sub had properly reported to the table before the 2nd free throw. The time-out is no longer relevant.

Ask your partner this, in this situation would he deny a sub who reported to the table after the first free throw ended and before the 2nd free throw was administered?

Originally Posted by Wellmer

Bad News Ref, That's exactly what I asked him. He wasn't going to let her in after the 2nd free throw either. He was positive the clock had to run first. It was a blowout game so I wasn't going to argue with him. We work again tomorrow night in a sub district final so I wanted to act like I knew what I was talking about. Thanks for the feedback.

[Wellmer]

This is a veteren official we are talking about, so that's why its a head scratcher. I wish the case book would have this example somewhere. The only thing I can think of that's causing the confusion is when a sub comes out and then tries to re-enter for whatever reason, before the clock starts. In that case, the clock does have to start before they can come back in.

[Wellmer]

@ letmeplay I am the poster child for "common sense" officiating, that's why this one has me baffled.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

This is a veteren official we are talking about, so that's why its a head scratcher.

Veteran Official != Official that knows the rules