The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 04:11am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 179
"And 1" a bad call?

I had an official that I respect very much, with many years of playoff experience, tell me after observing me that any foul called on a made basket is an unnecessary call. Went so far as to say "and 1" shouldn't ever be called unless the contact is very egregious. There were five other experienced officials in the locker room while he was talking to me and afterwards all were a little confused by these comments.
I'm all for letting skilled players play through some contact as long as there's no advantage, but don't the shooters deserve a little protection, especially on plays that aren't very saavy from the defenders. And does everyone really wait to see the result of a shot before they're calling fouls?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 04:13am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindolbat View Post
I had an official that I respect very much, with many years of playoff experience, tell me after observing me that any foul called on a made basket is an unnecessary call. Went so far as to say "and 1" shouldn't ever be called unless the contact is very egregious. There were five other experienced officials in the locker room while he was talking to me and afterwards all were a little confused by these comments.
I'm all for letting skilled players play through some contact as long as there's no advantage, but don't the shooters deserve a little protection, especially on plays that aren't very saavy from the defenders. And does everyone really wait to see the result of a shot before they're calling fouls?
Thanks for your thoughts.
As far as I'm concerned, this is taking the concept of advantage/disadvantage way too far. A/D has nothing to do with whether a shot is made -- it has to do with whether the shot attempt is affected.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 05:58am
APG APG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindolbat View Post
I had an official that I respect very much, with many years of playoff experience, tell me after observing me that any foul called on a made basket is an unnecessary call. Went so far as to say "and 1" shouldn't ever be called unless the contact is very egregious. There were five other experienced officials in the locker room while he was talking to me and afterwards all were a little confused by these comments.
I'm all for letting skilled players play through some contact as long as there's no advantage, but don't the shooters deserve a little protection, especially on plays that aren't very saavy from the defenders. And does everyone really wait to see the result of a shot before they're calling fouls?
Thanks for your thoughts.
That official must think that a lot of D-I and NBA officials have no concept of what marginal/incidental contact is versus illegal contact.

As for waiting to see the result of the shot, I don't believe in doing that. I judge, at the time, whether the contact is illegal or not. If it is and we still have an and one, good for the offensive player.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 09:12am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 893
We as an association got the same speech about a year ago.

I agree, call the foul if it's a foul, no matter if the basket is made or not.

Now, I have held my whistle on contact where a defender is falling trying to draw the charge, if the basket is made, I may ignore the block, if missed, make the call because the defender created the contact.

To make my picture clearer, the defend comes into the OP and contacts and flops. More often than not this contact has been minimal, but it is created by the defense, in my opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 09:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 302
I think it might be possible the observer was trying to say have a patient whistle and see the whole play? I don't take it as far as not calling a foul if the basket goes, but I do think at times we officials get a little whistle happy and call the and one more than it needs to be called.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 09:55am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleringer View Post
I think it might be possible the observer was trying to say have a patient whistle and see the whole play? I don't take it as far as not calling a foul if the basket goes, but I do think at times we officials get a little whistle happy and call the and one more than it needs to be called.
But the fact that the ball went in the hole isn't why we hold the whistle -- it's that the contact doesn't rise to the level of a foul. This should be true whether the shot is made or missed.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 10:10am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by richmsn View Post
but the fact that the ball went in the hole isn't why we hold the whistle -- it's that the contact doesn't rise to the level of a foul. This should be true whether the shot is made or missed.
+1
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 10:20am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan View Post
We as an association got the same speech about a year ago.

I agree, call the foul if it's a foul, no matter if the basket is made or not.

Now, I have held my whistle on contact where a defender is falling trying to draw the charge, if the basket is made, I may ignore the block, if missed, make the call because the defender created the contact.

To make my picture clearer, the defend comes into the OP and contacts and flops. More often than not this contact has been minimal, but it is created by the defense, in my opinion.
I'm confused, are you talking about a defender with LGP who falls early?
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 10:23am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Whether the shot goes in doesn't matter, IMO. The question is whether the contact makes the shot discernibly more difficult.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:11pm
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleringer View Post
I think it might be possible the observer was trying to say have a patient whistle and see the whole play
I see this argument as, "how can the contact be truly advantageous when the shooter scored?"

It's somewhat of a soccer mentality, but there are a number reasons it doesn't work in basketball. The big one, as I see it, is continuation.

In other sports, the whistle kills the play, which is why those whistles are more patient. For example, you want to make sure a soccer attacker can "play through" any advantageous contact. You don't blast the whistle until the scoring opportunity is negated.

In basketball, by rule, if you're fouled after you start your attempt, the whistle allows you to finish it. This rule acknowledges that advantageous contact happens during tries for goal, and penalizes accordingly, while allowing the shooter his right complete his attempt.

I still believe in a patient whistle in basketball, especially on non-shooting fouls. Still, as long as continuation exists in basketball (which it should), the need to be patient won't be as strong as the other sports.
__________________
Confidence is a vehicle, not a destination.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
There were a lot of guys around here who used to suggest the same thing and some that still do. It is often pushed by a lot, but not all, of the D3 and NAIA guys. But it is a fading philosophy.

I never really liked it and tried to to some degree and it just doesn't work out well in general. There is contact that makes the shot more difficult. The shooter deserves something more for having to make the shot under those circumstances. When not called, players get frustrated and coaches get frustrated....not worth the headaches to get done 5 minutes quicker.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
I see this argument as, "how can the contact be truly advantageous when the shooter scored?"

It's somewhat of a soccer mentality, but there are a number reasons it doesn't work in basketball. The big one, as I see it, is continuation.
It's a soccer mentality?! I'll never do it again.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleringer View Post
It's a soccer mentality?! I'll never do it again.
It's not really a soccer mentality. The soccer mentality is we don't punish fouls when the penalty for the foul is less advantageous for offended team than the current situation is. We still acknowledge the foul by calling out "Play on."

The only place a soccer-style advantage could be played would be a breakaway where a foul which wasn't a shooting foul would stop play but not the breakaway. (Perhaps a passer getting killed after the ball is away or a dribbler being held but he quickly gets away without anyone getting between him and the basket.)
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 12:57pm
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
The soccer mentality is we don't punish fouls when the penalty for the foul is less advantageous for offended team than the current situation is.
That's equivalent to what the OP was saying, or at least, that's how I inferred it.
__________________
Confidence is a vehicle, not a destination.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 01:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
That's equivalent to what the OP was saying, or at least, that's how I inferred it.
Advantage in soccer acknowledges that there was a foul but awarding the penalty would hurt you. Advantage is soccer is expressly not ignoring the foul (even if the parents think that's what we are doing).

What the gent in the OP is suggesting is that we ignore fouls on made baskets. That has nothing to do with penalty hurting the offended team but we a misunderstanding of what advantage/disadvantage is.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is "the patient whistle" and "possession consequence" ruining the game? fiasco Basketball 46 Fri Dec 02, 2011 08:43am
ABC's "Nightline" examines "worst calls ever" tonight pizanno Basketball 27 Fri Jul 04, 2008 06:08am
Turned down the opportunity to call "Delay Return to the Court" T yesterday. ca_rumperee Basketball 16 Thu Jan 24, 2008 04:16am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:40pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1