Hats off to our brother officials in Football

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

If that was the 'wrong' time, when, in your opinion, would've been the 'right' time?


Three points:
1) Brady was still in the tackle box when the pass was thrown.

2) The pass was thrown as a Giant's D-lineman (Tuck?) was about to sack him.

3) The pass was thrown into an area where there were no eligible receivers.

Combine all three, and that makes intentional grounding the correct call in the NFL ruleset.

Change any of those three points, and it's not IG:
1) if he had left the tackle box it would've been no intentional grounding, even if he returned to the tackle box prior to throwing the pass.

2) if there was nobody close to sacking him, you could make a case for a "wrong route", since in that case the pass would've NOT obviously been thrown to "conserve yardage" or "conserve time". Obviously not the case here.

3) If there's an eligible receiver in the area, obviously there's no IG.

Right time would not have been during commercial break

[grunewar]

....and, they don't hold up the game and let the coach know he has too many players on the field either! WHACK!! TWICE!!

I love that graphic when it goes up!

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by grunewar

....and, they don't hold up the game and let the coach know he has too many players on the field either! WHACK!! TWICE!!

I love that graphic when it goes up!

Apples and oranges. Football allows 'live ball' substitutions (between downs), basketball does not.

In basketball:
1) you don't let the ball become live if a team has 4 (or 6) players on the court.
2) If a 6th player enters during a live ball, you have a technical foul.
3) If a player leaves the court (for an unauthorized reason) during a live (or dead) ball, you have a technical foul.

In football:
1) you don't let a ball become live on a free kick if there are not 11 players on the field for each team.
2) If a 12th player enters during a down or if there are more then 11 players participating at the start of a down, you have a foul (illegal subsitution or illegal participation, depending on the ruleset and exact circumstances).
3) If a player leaves the field during a down, you have no penalty (unless he returns during the same down and participates or he was blocked out of bounds and returns at the earliest opportunity).


You're trying to compare basketball situation 1 to football situation 2. In situation 1, football and basketball are identical.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Apples and oranges. Football allows 'live ball' substitutions (between downs), basketball does not.

In basketball:
1) you don't let the ball become live if a team has 4 (or 6) players on the court.
2) If a 6th player enters during a live ball, you have a technical foul.
3) If a player leaves the court (for an unauthorized reason) during a live (or dead) ball, you have a technical foul.

2. Or if you miscount and put the ball in play anyway. We try to stop it, but it's not our fault in the end.
3. This is a violation, not a T. (9-3-3)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Apples and oranges. Football allows 'live ball' substitutions (between downs), basketball does not.

In basketball:
1) you don't let the ball become live if a team has 4 (or 6) players on the court.
2) If a 6th player enters during a live ball, you have a technical foul.
3) If a player leaves the court (for an unauthorized reason) during a live (or dead) ball, you have a technical foul.

In football:
1) you don't let a ball become live on a free kick if there are not 11 players on the field for each team.
2) If a 12th player enters during a down or if there are more then 11 players participating at the start of a down, you have a foul (illegal subsitution or illegal participation, depending on the ruleset and exact circumstances).
3) If a player leaves the field during a down, you have no penalty (unless he returns during the same down and participates or he was blocked out of bounds and returns at the earliest opportunity).


You're trying to compare basketball situation 1 to football situation 2. In situation 1, football and basketball are identical.

Question as this has come up a lot since the game. After the Giants got flagged for that 12 man penalty if they had done it again on the next play would it have been unsportsman-like conduct penalty or just another 5-yard penalty? Or after the first penalty would the officials not let the ball be ready for play if the Giants still had 12 men on the field?

Was there ever a time when having 12 men participating in the play was a different penalty than just having 12 men on the field (1 player running to get off)?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Question as this has come up a lot since the game. After the Giants got flagged for that 12 man penalty if they had done it again on the next play would it have been unsportsman-like conduct penalty or just another 5-yard penalty? Or after the first penalty would the officials not let the ball be ready for play if the Giants still had 12 men on the field?

Was there ever a time when having 12 men participating in the play was a different penalty than just having 12 men on the field (1 player running to get off)?

Some folks seem to think it was no accident that the Giants played that down with 12. That sounds a little conspiracy-theory to me, but it's possible. I don't know NFL rules inside and out, but I'm not aware of any "automatic" upgrade for a second offense.

In NFHS football, illegal substitution is a 5-yard penalty (think player not getting off the field before the snap), whereas if the 12th man participates, it's illegal participation, a 15-yard penalty. If the Giants' play had happened in a HS game, the foul would have been IP.