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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 01:43pm
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HS aged boys games last night. I'm finally getting comfortable with this level of ball. I'm feeling really good about that.

I have worked with this particular referee many times, but never at this level. I noticed that after most foul calls he stopped to explain why he made the call. It was kind of comical, in a way, to see him signal the foul, then raise both hands straight up to gesture to the fouler that he needed to be straight up. He seems to have a pretty good repoire with the players, however.

When I call a foul, I give an initial signal then go report. If a player wants to know more, he can ask. Which I hope he won't do because by the time I get back to my position I have forgotten the details and moved on. I figure the less said to anybody while I'm on the floor, the better. Helps prevent athletes tounge.

I feel my partner's approach is wrong. These are HS aged players and what he does smells like coaching to me. I overheard one of the coaches saying to his player about one of these exchanges, "That's nice, too bad he isn't the coach."

But he's been at this a lot longer than I have, and perhaps I just don't get it. He handles coaches much better than I do, so I am interested in learning from his people skills. Is it just a matter of style? Am I wrong to be so business-like about it all? Or am I right to think that I definitely DON'T want to emulate this particular style.
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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 02:25pm
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Thumbs down

I have an agreement with coaches. I don't coach and they don't ref.
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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 03:16pm
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Lightbulb It is that time of year.

This is summer ball. This might be the way he acts during this time of year. I do similar talking, but not to this extent. Maybe that is what is taking place with him. I know I do this because the spring/summer is a learning time. You are not as isolated from the players as you are during the regular season.

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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 03:21pm
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I give short explanations when solicited. Otherwise, whistle/fist, colour, number, foul, consequence. Nothing more nothing less.

I'm always open to inquiries, that's part of your job, but Padgett's right (oh my God what did I just say), they don't ref, we don't coach.
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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 03:45pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
I have an agreement with coaches. I don't coach and they don't ref.
I really expected that your reply would be:

Get in
Get it done
Get out
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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 03:47pm
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Re: It is that time of year.

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
This is summer ball. This might be the way he acts during this time of year. I do similar talking, but not to this extent. Maybe that is what is taking place with him. I know I do this because the spring/summer is a learning time. You are not as isolated from the players as you are during the regular season.

Peace
What extent do you think IS appropriate?
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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 04:09pm
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I will give an explanation if a player or coach requests, and is polite. Otherwise, players and coaches know why you called a foul most of the time. Sometimes less said the better. But I am open to talking to players and coaches to tell them what I saw.

AK ref SE
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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 05:08pm
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Question

I have noticed that in the NBA (Nearly Basketball Assn.), the officials are very expressive with their foul signals. I don't mean they're too demonstrative - I mean they give signals that indicate the behavior of the player who fouled. I've seen Dick Bavetta often give a signal that looks like he's grabbing his wrist and raising his elbow above his shoulder to indicate the defender moved his elbow into the offensive player on a block.

Is there an official signal chart for the NBA? I haven't seen it on their website.

BTW - I guess there's an official NFL signal for "givin' him the business".
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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 05:56pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Is there an official signal chart for the NBA? I haven't seen it on their website.
Yes, it's in the back of the official rulebook. There's an abbreviated version in the back of the official's manual.

Quote:
BTW - I guess there's an official NFL signal for "givin' him the business".
One of the all-time great video clips of an official. It's right up there with the clip of Dick Bavetta while working a Miami/New York playoff game. A scuffle breaks out and when it settles down, Bavetta goes to the table to explain the fouls, etc. He says one player is ejected for throwing a punch. The coach (Riley, I think) says "Where did he land a punch?!?!" Bavetta turns to look at him at just points to the bridge of his own nose, which is dripping blood! Great clip.

Another Miami/New York, another scuffle and a different official. I can't remember his name, but he's one of the long time guys. You'd recognize him. When he goes to the table to sort it out, Riley approaches him to put in his two cents and the official just YELLS, "Get the h*** away from me!!!"

Good times!
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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 06:15pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
I have an agreement with coaches. I don't coach and they don't ref.
I really expected that your reply would be:

Get in
Get it done
Get out
He probably associates this with something other than basketball -- and I'm not talking about the bathroom.

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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 09:04pm
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I speak to the coaches on a need to know basis. If they don't question, I don't explain. If they question, I explain. KISS method works for me.
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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 10:54pm
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Re: Re: It is that time of year.

Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle


What extent do you think IS appropriate?
When a player asks you a question in a calm way, you answer it. I might then say more than I would in a regular season situation. Basically I understand that there is some learning and teaching going on in the summer, so I act accordingly. It is a bit laid back.

Peace
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Old Thu May 15, 2003, 11:08pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
I have an agreement with coaches. I don't coach and they don't ref.
I really expected that your reply would be:

Get in
Get it done
Get out
I think that's Mick.

Anyway, don't feel obliged to explain your calls verbally or with weird signals. Just report, if the coach asks/complains/b1thces take a second to explain. That's it!
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Old Fri May 16, 2003, 08:07am
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Coach perspective

Many fouls are committed because of a previous inaction rather than the specific action. That is, failure to block out leads to offensive rebound and a defensive swipe at the put back. I don't want to fix the swipe as much as the lack of the blockout that created the situation. I will address both (as in don't compound your first error by swiping at the ball you didn't rebound), but my focus will not be the foul but the rebound.

Similarly, the help defender often gets into trouble and fouls because the initial defender quit on the play, allowing the offensive player more freedom of movement. I am more focused on the player who failed to stay with her defense than the one that tried to help (although I will probably talk to B2 about not picking up cheap fouls).

Bottomline - I agree. Don't coach my players. And I really try not to ref too much, but I will offer unsolicited advice from time to time
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Old Fri May 16, 2003, 09:37am
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Re: Coach perspective

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach


Bottomline - I agree. Don't coach my players. And I really try not to ref too much, but I will offer unsolicited advice from time to time
I'll make you a deal coach, I'll stop coaching when you (the literary you) start coaching.

It is said that it is the little things that count so:

A. I call a spot throw-in and point to the spot on the floor. The player stands there, so far so good. I move away some distance to put some space between us before I bounce the ball to the player. What does the player do? He/She walks toward me to get the ball. What do I do? I point to the original spot and tell the player that is where he should be. You would be surprised at the number of coaches that take exception to this. Granted a small number but it should be zero. (One of these days I am going to keep walking just to see how far the kid will follow. )

B. Speaking of throwing in the ball, or the defense of it, when are coaches going to tell their charges not to windmill their arms. And while we are at it let me coach the coach. Why is it that I have never seen a player step right up to the line when throwing-in the ball? Doing this to try to draw the T or intentional on a defender that is right on the in-court side of the line?

C. Don’t get mad at the official when we “don’t tell a player what to do.” Case in point is the lineup for the free throw. As long as B1 and B2 occupy the first spaces I don’t care where the rest lineup on the lane line. (Don’t know what I am going to do when a player occupies the #4 space this year.)

Now let’s talk about a big thing. Before last season we invited coaches to our board’s general meetings, boys representatives one month and girls the next month. One of the coaches voiced displeasure with us in that we talk to his kids after a call. Though these are not his exact words his statement was something like, “I would appreciate it if you would not tell my players the why what he did was wrong. Coaches teach players a way of defense such as backing out another player from the lane, or putting a hand or forearm into an opponents back and leaving it there. That is the way we teach them and you should not correct them if they say something.” Excuse me! So when some kid says something to us that implies that we don’t know what we are doing call that a foul we are not to say why it is wrong? I think not.

As so many of us have said, we appreciate YOUR knowledge of the game and YOUR willingness to see our point of view but you are the exception not the rule.


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