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-   -   Clock running out (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/86166-clock-running-out.html)

rwest Mon Jan 23, 2012 03:06pm
I agree
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 815989)
I totally agree, but some require all these things not stated in the rules and claim because it is not written to the letter, then it cannot be used.

Peace
If anyone is going to require "definite knowledge" by the pure definition of the word, then we never have it. Our visible counts are not as accurate as the clock. At best we have a reasonable estimation as to how much time to take off. Its the best we can do and is better than just making something up. Also, if my partner is responsible for a visible count but forgets to provide one, can I not provide him with my mental count if I have one (a count that is and not a mind :) ) to help in determining how much time to take off? I believe by rule I can.


The definition of definite....

clearly defined or determined; not vague or general; fixed; precise; exact: a definite quantity; definite directions; positive; certain; sure:

Cobra Mon Jan 23, 2012 09:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwest (Post 816021)
If anyone is going to require "definite knowledge" by the pure definition of the word, then we never have it.
There is a whistle. The official looks at the clock and it says 4:34. It continues to run and stops at 4:28.

The official isn't certain and sure of how much time should be on the clock?

rwest Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:21am
That's not the scenario
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra (Post 816111)
There is a whistle. The official looks at the clock and it says 4:34. It continues to run and stops at 4:28.

The official isn't certain and sure of how much time should be on the clock?
In the scenario offered it was a count that was the definite knowledge. A human count is not going to be as accurate as a clock. So I shouldn't have said never but in the OP we don't have definite knowledge

just another ref Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:25am
When the words "definite knowledge" appear in the book, it has nothing to do with accuracy. It means don't guess. I definitely counted. I definitely asked that guy in the stands that I noticed was holding a stopwatch. etc.

It means "The clock didn't start. How much time do y'all suppose elapsed? About 8 or 10 seconds will be close enough," is not allowed.

Which is not to say that some officials don't do it anyway.

Camron Rust Tue Jan 24, 2012 02:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 816151)
I definitely asked that guy in the stands that I noticed was holding a stopwatch. etc.
That is NOT definite knowledge. You have no idea if they did or did not correctly time the event you're asking about or their impartiality.

just another ref Tue Jan 24, 2012 02:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 816166)
That is NOT definite knowledge. You have no idea if they did or did not correctly time the event you're asking about or their impartiality.
The hypothetical guy was my dad.:D

Camron Rust Tue Jan 24, 2012 03:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 816167)
The hypothetical guy was my dad.:D
And I was supposed to read you mind??? :p

just another ref Tue Jan 24, 2012 03:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 816171)
And I was supposed to read you mind??? :p
YES


Seriously, the point was that definite knowledge meant that obtained from a solid source deemed reliable as opposed to a guess, by the official or anyone else. It is a given that no timing device can be 100% accurate in this situation.

My dad passed away in '94, and for a while before that I wouldn't have trusted him with a stopwatch.

Camron Rust Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 816172)
YES


Seriously, the point was that definite knowledge meant that obtained from a solid source deemed reliable as opposed to a guess, by the official or anyone else. It is a given that no timing device can be 100% accurate in this situation.

My dad passed away in '94, and for a while before that I wouldn't have trusted him with a stopwatch.
I think I'd draw the line at getting help from someone, even a trusted someone, in the stands.

BillyMac Tue Jan 24, 2012 08:38pm
It's A Matter Of Trust ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 816279)
I think I'd draw the line at getting help from someone, even a trusted someone, in the stands.
Mother Teresa? Gandhi? Jesus? Dr. M. L. King, Jr.? Lincoln?


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