Duke/Clemson Flagrant 1

[fiasco]

2nd half, Duke player gets a defensive rebound. Rotates his elbows extended toward a Clemson player, but doesn't make contact.

Clemson player fakes being fouled. How do we know this? Well, there's the replay:










That, and the Clemson player told the official there was no contact:

"I told the ref I didn't get hit," Smith said. "My face is fine. But I don't know what the rule is. They have different rules for flagrant fouls."

Supplied with that information, Karl Hess goes to the monitor and comes back with a Flagrant 1 on Duke player.

[SNIPERBBB]

Tough luck there..IIRC from previous replay posts they can only upgrade a foul during a review but cannot downgrade if there is a mistake?

BTW what happened to the duke player holding his head and what is the L think he is trying to see?

[Camron Rust]

I'm just wondering if the lead was thinking of going for the rebound given his position.

[Toren]

Would anyone give a T to the Clemson player for flopping?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by fiasco

2nd half, Duke player gets a defensive rebound. Rotates his elbows extended toward a Clemson player, but doesn't make contact.

Clemson player fakes being fouled. How do we know this? Well, there's the replay:





That, and the Clemson player told the official there was no contact:



Supplied with that information, Karl Hess goes to the monitor and comes back with a Flagrant 1 on Duke player.

What was initially signalled? A foul cannot be downgraded after going to the monitor, only upgraded or upheld.

Secondly, is there any audio to prove the Clemson player told the official that? And even if he did, since when do we officiate the game based on what a player told us?

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What was initiallt signalled? A foul cannot be downgraded after going to the monitor, only upgraded or upheld.

Don't know what the initial signal was. Is there a preliminary signal for flagrant foul 1?

From my (limited) understanding of NCAA rules, the following section suggests to me that you can go to the monitor and determine that a Flagrant 1 did NOT occur, then you just go POI.

When it is determined that a flagrant 1 or 2 personal foul, a flagrant 2 contact technical foul or a fight did not occur or did not occur within the prescribed time frame, play shall be resumed where the stoppage of play occurred to review the act.

That reads to me like the officials could have determined from the monitor (and the information gathered from the player) that no flagrant 1 occurred, and just put the ball in to Duke on the endline. So what am I missing?

Secondly, is there any audio to prove the Clemson player told the official that? And even if he did, since when do we officiate the game based on what a player told us?

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Are you saying you think Smith is lying? What reason would he have for lying?

Even so, no, I don't officiate my games based solely on what a player tells me, but if I think there might be a chance I kicked a call, and then I get information from a player or coach who would be benefiting from said kicked call, I'm certainly not going to just throw out that information.

[JRutledge]

The Lead is in a bad position. He is totally straightlined on this call if he made it. This is why you do not officiate in the lane. Your angle is taken away.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Don't know what the initial signal was. Is there a preliminary signal for flagrant foul 1?

From my (limited) understanding of NCAA rules, the following section suggests to me that you can go to the monitor and determine that a Flagrant 1 did NOT occur, then you just go POI.



That reads to me like the officials could have determined from the monitor (and the information gathered from the player) that no flagrant 1 occurred, and just put the ball in to Duke on the endline. So what am I missing?



I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Are you saying you think Smith is lying? What reason would he have for lying?

Even so, no, I don't officiate my games based solely on what a player tells me, but if I think there might be a chance I kicked a call, and then I get information from a player or coach who would be benefiting from said kicked call, I'm certainly not going to just throw out that information.

Flagrant 1 (old Intentional Foul) is 2 hands crossed above the head. As I and another member has posted you cannot downgrade a foul once going to the monitor. So if it was already signaled as a Flagrant 1 then the only other option would have been a Flagrant 2. You cannot downgrade to a personal foul or no-call.

So unless you have information as to what was initially signalled this conversation is not going to help determine if what they did is right.

As for the player, I don't know if he is lying or not. Or whether he remembers exactly what he told the official. My point is that his quote to the reporter is of no bearing since you are clearly implying in our post that Karl Hess went to the monitor and ruled a Flagrant 1 despite what the player is quoted as saying. What were you trying to get at with the way you worded your post? I'm inferring from your post that you are criticizing Karl Hess' decision even though you have admitted you don't know the rule.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Flagrant 1 (old Intentional Foul) is 2 hands crossed above the head. As I and another member has posted you cannot downgrade a foul once going to the monitor. So if it was already signaled as a Flagrant 1 then the only other option would have been a Flagrant 2. You cannot downgrade to a personal foul or no-call.

I'm almost positive that signal was not made. I wish I had kept the DVR recording of the game. I PM'ed APG to see if he could snag the clip to give us more info.

What were you trying to get at with the way you worded your post? I'm inferring you are criticizing Karl Hess' decision even though you have admitted you don't know the rule.

I wasn't trying to "get" at anything. My words mean exactly what they say. According to official accounts of what happened on the play, the official(s) were informed by the player that no contact was made. That, combined with the replay, still resulted in a call of flagrant 1. I'm curious as to why.

I'm not criticizing Karl Hess' decision. I'm questioning it, based on what I've read in the rule book and what I've read about the play in question. I'm seeking additional insight from other forum members about the play and the rule(s) in question.

Can you help me out by citing what rule says you can't downgrade a foul even after going to the monitor? I couldn't find it in the NCAA rule book. The word "downgrade" doesn't even appear in the book.

[Raymond]

A.R. 39.

An official reports a flagrant 1 personal foul on A1 because of illegal elbow contact above the shoulders of B1. The coach from Team B asks the officials to review the foul using the monitor to determine if the foul was a flagrant 2 personal foul. The official reviews the monitor to see if a flagrant 2 personal foul occurred on the play and upon review sees that the illegal contact was actually made below the shoulders. Is the official permitted to change the reported flagrant 1 personal foul to a common foul? Is Team B charged with a timeout because a flagrant 2 personal foul did not occur?

RULING: While the officials are permitted to review the monitor to see if a flagrant 2 personal foul or (Women) a flagrant 1 personal foul for illegal elbow contact above the shoulders of an opponent occurred, Rule 2-13-2.d.1 states that when it is determined that a flagrant 2 personal foul did not occur but a flagrant 1 personal or a contact dead ball technical foul did occur, those fouls can be penalized, but no other infractions may be penalized. When the official reports a flagrant 1 personal foul, that foul can be reviewed until the ball becomes live, but when it is discovered that neither a flagrant 1 nor flagrant 2 foul occurred, the reported foul cannot be downgraded to a common foul. Since the coach requested a review for a possible flagrant 2 personal foul and no such foul occurred, Team B is charged a timeout.

(RULING: 2-13.2.d.1)

A.R. 43.

The official reports a flagrant 2 foul on A1. After reporting the foul, the officials decide to use the monitor to determine if another flagrant 2 personal or flagrant 2 contact technical foul occurred. The officials do not see another flagrant 2 foul, but would like to downgrade the foul against A1 to a flagrant 1 personal foul. Are the officials permitted to downgrade a foul that has been reported?

RULING: Yes. This foul can be downgraded to only a flagrant 1 personal foul or a contact dead ball technical. When the officials reported the foul as a flagrant 2 foul on A1, that foul can be reviewed until the ball becomes live. When officials are not sure if a flagrant 2 personal or flagrant 2 contact technical foul occurred, they are permitted to use the monitor to make this determination.

(Rule 2-13-2.d.1)

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The Lead is in a bad position. He is totally straightlined on this call if he made it. This is why you do not officiate in the lane. Your angle is taken away.

Peace

Great point and a good take away for me. Thanks for pointing that out.

[fiasco]

Thanks for quoting that, BadNewsRef.

I have a buddy who still has the game recorded. The L (Joe Lindsay) signaled a common foul on the play (fist raised straight in the air).

My question is, the case book talks about not being able to downgrade the play, but does it mention anything about negating the foul call altogether when the officials determine no contact at all occurred?

And, is there a "faking being fouled" rule in NCAA? Couldn't find that either.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Thanks for quoting that, BadNewsRef.

I have a buddy who still has the game recorded. The L (Joe Lindsay) signaled a common foul on the play (fist raised straight in the air).

My question is, the case book talks about not being able to downgrade the play, but does it mention anything about negating the foul call altogether when the officials determine no contact at all occurred?

And, is there a "faking being fouled" rule in NCAA? Couldn't find that either.

No. (99% certainty) Yes. (80%)

(No books handy today and I can't get the on-line book to d/l)

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by fiasco

T

The L (Joe Lindsay) signaled a common foul on the play (fist raised straight in the air).

At the spot...does the recording show what he actually reported to the table?

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

At the spot...does the recording show what he actually reported to the table?

Dunno. Camera cuts away to show replays.