let the play finish?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

I like the responses on this thread, but I have one question for you:

Isn't making a call like this an open invitation to more pushing and shoving and rough play?

Because if the rebounder misses the shot, and then you play on, you have just told the player who pushed off that you can get away with doing it. Also, now the person who misses the shot now believes it was the uncalled foul that caused her miss, and she is going to play more physical at her end.

This kind of thinking can lead to more fouls in the long run, and maybe even exploding tempers and physical harm in rare cases. And we have not even talked about the coaches in this yet.

The Fed rules committee every years speaks about rough play and how they want the game called. As I read the committee, this kind of foul needs to be called in their opinion. Are they right?

Comments please.

This is why there is a distinction between fouls that you have to call to prevent the game from going down the tubes, and fouls based on advantage/disadvantage. Sometimes, only experience tells you what those fouls are.

[APG]

On these type of plays (rebounding plays) I've been told to only call a foul if:

1. There's possession consequence
2. To clean up rough play.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I would have simply told the coach I didn't consider the contact a foul because she played through it and had a wide open shot. I don't have any second thoughts on these, either. If she misses a wide open layup, why should I feel guilty about letting her take it?

Exactly. And any coach that doesnt understand that hasnt been doing this very long and will probably be yelling if you did blow your whistle, "hey you just killed our fast break."

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

On these type of plays (rebounding plays) I've been told to only call a foul if:

1. There's possession consequence
2. To clean up rough play.

I've been told the same thing. I like JAR's responses on incidental vs illegal.

When applied correctly, I don't think advantage/disadvantage or "seeing the whole play" is a double edged sword at all.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Fast break with only one defender to beat. Defender fouls dribbler just after she crosses division line. Partner relating this account said he passed on it, judging that dribbler would be put at disadvantage on subsequent layup which looked like it was gonna be an easy one-on-none attempt by the time she got to the lane. She tanks one off the bottom of the rim. Coach goes ballistic over why the foul wasn't called. Probably wouldn't have said a thing had the layup been successful.
Couldn't go back and call the foul that preceeded the failed attempt. He was stuck.

Coaches use the terms fouled/touched/barely touched interchangeable, depending on what they want at the time. The defender contacted the dribbler at the division line, followed by the dribbler finishing the layup one on none.
Doesn't sound like a foul to me.

[JRutledge]

There is almost always going to be contact on rebounds, so I would probably have passed on the contact unless I felt they were giving a more difficult shot by the contact. We can talk philosophy on this all day, but unless I see the contact I really am not sure if you did the right thing. All I will say is this is a time to have a slow whistle, but I am not sure I would wait on an obvious foul just because to wait to see if the shot was made. If I have a rebounding foul, I probably would have called a foul way before the shot. Then again not seeing the play it is hard to say what was the right thing to do.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Sometimes, only experience tells you what those fouls are.

Agree. Well put.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by jrutledge

there is almost always going to be contact on rebounds, so i would probably have passed on the contact unless i felt they were giving a more difficult shot by the contact. We can talk philosophy on this all day, but unless i see the contact i really am not sure if you did the right thing. All i will say is this is a time to have a slow whistle, but i am not sure i would wait on an obvious foul just because to wait to see if the shot was made. If i have a rebounding foul, i probably would have called a foul way before the shot. Then again not seeing the play it is hard to say what was the right thing to do.

Peace

+1

[bob jenkins]

Possible thread hijack:

Play: A1 attempts a two-handed, over-the-head crosscourt pass. As she releases the ball, B1 contacts her on the forearm with an open palm ("smack"). The pass is still released. If we paused the action right here, the official judges the contact to be incidental, especially given the level of play and the calls that night. Resume action. The pass floats, and B2 intercepts the pass.

Question: Is it too late to go back and get a foul on B1?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Real Scenerio Related to Me in a Pregame Two Weeks Ago:
Fast break with only one defender to beat. Defender fouls dribbler just after she crosses division line. Partner relating this account said he passed on it, judging that dribbler would be put at disadvantage on subsequent layup which looked like it was gonna be an easy one-on-none attempt by the time she got to the lane. She tanks one off the bottom of the rim. Coach goes ballistic over why the foul wasn't called. Probably wouldn't have said a thing had the layup been successful.
Couldn't go back and call the foul that preceeded the failed attempt. He was stuck.

Only difference between this and the scenerio first expressed was the amount of time in between foul and successful goal. But the condundrum remains the same.

This advantage/disadvantage concept for deciding when to call and not call a foul can be a two-edged sword at times.

Just sayin'...

That time difference, and location on the court for that matter, do play a part in determining if fouls should be called.

In the OP, there is little chance to overcome the effects of the contact, so the contact is more scrutinized.

In your case, the foul happened far from the basket, giving the new offensive player much time and space to do her thing. In addition, players have different momentum crossing the DL than they do jumping for a rebound.

I guess what I'm saying is that RSBQ differs in the two plays.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Possible thread hijack:

Play: A1 attempts a two-handed, over-the-head crosscourt pass. As she releases the ball, B1 contacts her on the forearm with an open palm ("smack"). The pass is still released. If we paused the action right here, the official judges the contact to be incidental, especially given the level of play and the calls that night. Resume action. The pass floats, and B2 intercepts the pass.

Question: Is it too late to go back and get a foul on B1?

When there is a case where the question can be asked "is it too late...", the official has to (a) have a quick whistle if there is one, and (b) quickly judge the intent of the action prior to the foul.

This is where having played the game helps.

Camps taught me to know where the ball is going (on a pass, who the intended receiver is, etc) and if illegal contact hinders that goal, then yes, grab the foul.

When there is a smack as in your play bob, I think it's easier to call a foul, even if it's late. So yes, grab that foul. It wasn't incidental and shouldn't have been thought of that way in the first place.

I think there are some fouls that in our heads, are delayed fouls. They're not immediately known to be incidental, or immediately known to have a whistle. We do wait a short amount of time to gather more information. I once saw one of the top college officials in my (ahem) state whistle a play down a good 1.5 seconds after the foul. It was 100% the right call, but just late. No a single person said anything to him.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Possible thread hijack:

Play: A1 attempts a two-handed, over-the-head crosscourt pass. As she releases the ball, B1 contacts her on the forearm with an open palm ("smack"). The pass is still released. If we paused the action right here, the official judges the contact to be incidental, especially given the level of play and the calls that night. Resume action. The pass floats, and B2 intercepts the pass.

Question: Is it too late to go back and get a foul on B1?

If you already "judged" the contact to be incidental...then you stay with your non-call.

If you are gathering information...and have not already "judged" incidental...you could probably "go back" and get the foul...one of those have to be there.

Dave Libby told us at one of his camps..."have the courage to NOT CALL the foul, when the whole gym heard the slap". This was in relation to a lay-up...and probably just a slap on the hand.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Possible thread hijack:

Play: A1 attempts a two-handed, over-the-head crosscourt pass. As she releases the ball, B1 contacts her on the forearm with an open palm ("smack"). The pass is still released. If we paused the action right here, the official judges the contact to be incidental, especially given the level of play and the calls that night. Resume action. The pass floats, and B2 intercepts the pass.

Question: Is it too late to go back and get a foul on B1?

I quickly look at the path of the ball. More times than not I'm coming in with a whistle that's a little late.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Dave Libby told us at one of his camps..."have the courage to NOT CALL the foul, when the whole gym heard the slap". This was in relation to a lay-up...and probably just a slap on the hand.

I really like that. Sometimes it takes more courage not to call anything if you're sure there was nothing there.

[tref]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

On these type of plays (rebounding plays) I've been told to only call a foul if:

1. There's possession consequence
2. To clean up rough play.

Its a thing of beauty when the entire crew follows this play calling guideline for rebounds.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Play: A1 attempts a two-handed, over-the-head crosscourt pass. As she releases the ball, B1 contacts her on the forearm with an open palm ("smack"). The pass is still released. If we paused the action right here, the official judges the contact to be incidental, especially given the level of play and the calls that night. Resume action. The pass floats, and B2 intercepts the pass.

Question: Is it too late to go back and get a foul on B1?

I think those plays should be handled as SDF plays. When he got smacked on the pass, the play wasnt over yet.
Turnover, the play is over, slap caused a disadvantage... late whistle.
Hits the mark, the play is now over, slap didnt cause a disadvantage... the clock runs.

Never too late to get it right!

[Adam]

I think in Bob's play, you have to decide whether the slap caused the turnover, or whether A1 happened to throw a bad pass after an incidental slap.