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-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Uncalled Cheap Shots (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/85312-uncalled-cheap-shots.html)

ga314ref Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:01am
I'm going to disagree...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 810430)
The officials have ZERO control over what the players do. ZERO. Officials can penalize properly and practice preventative officiating (which obviously was not done here), but ultimately the responsibility lies in the actions of the players.
Officials can't stop players from doing certain things, but we can remove their opportunity to do those things by ejecting them from the game. These officials didn't take care of business, and their lack of testicular fortitude is inexcusable.

I said it before: these guys did not look like they were up to the challenge that was in front of them, and they proved through their less than appropriate actions they weren't.

ga314ref Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:05am
If their lawyer...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 810461)
I agree with Fiasco to a point. Ultimately, we DO NOT control the individual actions of players and they are responsible for what they do on the court. This is why, as I stated earlier, that one of my biggest pet peeves is when people say, "you're gonna get somebody hurt out there."

In a court of law, a plaintiff would have to prove some form of negligence on the part of the game officials. In this video, I feel very strongly that the offficials were negligent (not necessarily in a legal sense but in an officiating sense) in dealing with #34's actions. There is a clear pattern of behavior that they allowed to continue and escalate.

But say foul #5 occurred first or a kid is injured on the first hard foul of the game. This is not the fault of the officials. There is an inherent risk involved in playing sports. Save for the Orlando Brown-Jeff Triplete incident in the NFL, I have never seen a player hurt as the direct result of an officials actions.
...can get an "official referee" to testify as a witness, who knows what might happen.

chseagle Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mplagrow (Post 810800)
If you saw the video, it was amazing that they weren't responding to the violence. And even if they did play the same way, that doesn't justify anything. Ref needs to deal with that too.
I did watch the video, nowhere did I say that #34's actions were caused by actions of the other team, I said that was a chance/possibility.

Rich Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 810984)
I did watch the video, nowhere did I say that #34's actions were caused by actions of the other team, I said that was a chance/possibility.
No, that's bull#$%@. No player and no actions can *cause* a player to step in and clothesline a player driving with the ball. Regardless of what the grandma says, this kid plays like a thug.

chseagle Fri Jan 06, 2012 06:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 810995)
No, that's bull#$%@. No player and no actions can *cause* a player to step in and clothesline a player driving with the ball. Regardless of what the grandma says, this kid plays like a thug.
And again I've already said that he should be in wrestling, not basketball.

Currently there does seem to be an investigation happening, as well as rumors of the potential of firing the coach (though that rumor is being denied).

There is more happening than what the video shows, considering there are many factors at play.

JugglingReferee Fri Jan 06, 2012 07:22am
This thread has run it's course here.

So speaking of experts, here is a nice YouTube clip: Accident Reconstruction Expert - YouTube for your amusement.

grunewar Fri Jan 06, 2012 07:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 810868)
The Cheap Shots Video went viral. It's on the front page of Yahoo! right now!
From the article:

"[Cole Vanderbilt] a tough kid, but those that know him know he's a teddy bear," Connell coach Oscar Garza told the Tri-City Herald. "My 7-year-old son loves him and lights up when he's around. But on (YouTube) he's the world's meanest, ugliest kid. It's not fair, but I just want him to know his teammates and coaches are behind him."

RookieDude Fri Jan 06, 2012 09:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 811036)
This thread has run it's course here.

So speaking of experts, here is a nice YouTube clip: Accident Reconstruction Expert - YouTube for your amusement.
...it was on CNN this morning...national media still running with it.

JRutledge Fri Jan 06, 2012 09:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ga314ref (Post 810976)
Officials can't stop players from doing certain things, but we can remove their opportunity to do those things by ejecting them from the game. These officials didn't take care of business, and their lack of testicular fortitude is inexcusable.
We are not all powerful and even if we call something we will be scrutinized. I just do not buy it when people try to convince us that we have some say we do not have. It is just not true that we have that kind of power. The coach decides who actually plays and or he allows his kid to continue some kind of action. We can call all the fouls we like and they can ignore the consequences. There probably was only one call in this game that was shown that could be really seen as flagrant. And if we did not have a produced video claiming that was the case I doubt seriously that many here would be advocating such action in the first place.

I would like to think we have that kind of influence, but I have seen situations that take place and the officials called all the fouls in the world.

Peace

BktBallRef Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 810014)
Plays two and six, I have nothing in of themselves. The other plays, at minimum would be an intentional foul in my book in of themselves (with the fifth play being a straight flagrant by itself) but since we have number 34 for white not seemingly attempting to play any legit defense, he would have been tossed well before we got to those other plays.
Agreed. Those two were just fouls, even if a little hard. INT for several other for excessive contact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 810015)
Frightening. Best thing I ever picked up at a camp was from a D1 official who said identify a troublemaker and get him out of there. 34 certainly is a troublemaker
Our state supevisor says to find the star and find the a$$hole.

BTW, haven't been on much this week. My Ford Ranger XLT burned to the ground Monday morning. But I posted this is a thread before seeing this thread and my initial comment was this may draw more responses than any thread in a long time!

BktBallRef Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 811039)
From the article:

"[Cole Vanderbilt] a tough kid, but those that know him know he's a teddy bear," Connell coach Oscar Garza told the Tri-City Herald. "My 7-year-old son loves him and lights up when he's around. But on (YouTube) he's the world's meanest, ugliest kid. It's not fair, but I just want him to know his teammates and coaches are behind him."
Which is exactly why the coach, as well as the players should be disciplined. :mad:

BTW, the officials don't get a free pass either.

gordon30307 Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:35am
Classic example of horse**** game management. Assuming these are in chronological order.

1. Common foul
2. common foul
3. intentional
4. intentional
5. flagrant
6 flagrant never would have happened because 34 would be gone.

You take care of business early and you get rid of the trouble makers by getting them in foul trouble. In a rough physical cheap shot game you IMHO call everthing to keep it under control.

That crew has no business reffing a Frosh B game much less a Varsity contest.

Rob1968 Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 811039)
From the article:

"[Cole Vanderbilt] a tough kid, but those that know him know he's a teddy bear," Connell coach Oscar Garza told the Tri-City Herald. "My 7-year-old son loves him and lights up when he's around. But on (YouTube) he's the world's meanest, ugliest kid. It's not fair, but I just want him to know his teammates and coaches are behind him."
"His teammates and coaches are behind him," because they know what kind of a bully he is, and they don't want any payback from him if they were to criticize his actions. His actions in the video are deplorable! He stands flat-footed and doesn't even jump, in his feigned attempts to block the ball, because he really has no intention to do so -- he really intended to lay one on the ball-handler.
It's safer to be behind him, because being in front of him, especially with your back to him, is too good of a target. Watching him comment to his teammate after a couple of the incidents really exposes his attitude! The two of them must be a joy in the hallways!

Rich Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 811053)
We are not all powerful and even if we call something we will be scrutinized. I just do not buy it when people try to convince us that we have some say we do not have. It is just not true that we have that kind of power. The coach decides who actually plays and or he allows his kid to continue some kind of action. We can call all the fouls we like and they can ignore the consequences. There probably was only one call in this game that was shown that could be really seen as flagrant. And if we did not have a produced video claiming that was the case I doubt seriously that many here would be advocating such action in the first place.

I would like to think we have that kind of influence, but I have seen situations that take place and the officials called all the fouls in the world.

Peace
I get what you're saying, but calling earlier fouls intentional sends a message. Closing on the foulers and using your voice sends a message. Calling the flagrant foul when it happens sends a message.

Doing nothing sends a message, too.

JugglingReferee Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:44am
I wonder how the officials are feeling now that the video went viral.


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