stupid kid; stupid parent

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Last night, my partner whacked a kid (H.S. Varsity) for saying, "and one" as the kid ran by my partner at half court.

Quite a few years ago, I worked lots of men's wreck league games with a guy who, unfortunately, has passed away. I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard him say to a player after a shot, "Don't give me any of that 'and one' sh!t." It was almost like his trademark.

[fiasco]

Okay, I'm going to have to pipe in late on this one.

In my opinion, you only set yourself up for trouble, and you intentionally set up the player by saying anything to the effect of "What did you say?"

First of all, what kind of response are you looking for? Several people have said you're hoping the kid will "take back" what was said. How? So you're hoping the kid, in the heat of the moment, will just come to you and say, "I'm sorry, Mr. Ref. I said something I shouldn't have, and I apologize."

That's pretty unrealistic, if you ask me.

So, what you've done now is put the player in a position where he/she either has to lie ("I didn't say anything" or simply "nothing"), or is forced to repeat himself/herself, which you've expressly asked him or her to do, so how are you then going to ding the player for it? That's called entrapment.

If you are 100% sure you hear it the first time, whack the first time. If you aren't 100% sure of what you hear the first time, either ignore it, or say something more constructive than "What did you say?" such as "Now, I thought I heard you say something, but I couldn't be sure. If I catch you saying something inappropriate, it's going to be a technical foul. You got me?"

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by fiasco

" You got me?"

Watch out asking questions...you might not like the answers.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Quite a few years ago, I worked lots of men's wreck league games with a guy who, unfortunately, has passed away. I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard him say to a player after a shot, "Don't give me any of that 'and one' sh!t." It was almost like his trademark.

That's perfect for men's league, too. Probably why I don't work men's league.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Okay, I'm going to have to pipe in late on this one.

In my opinion, you only set yourself up for trouble, and you intentionally set up the player by saying anything to the effect of "What did you say?"

First of all, what kind of response are you looking for? Several people have said you're hoping the kid will "take back" what was said. How? So you're hoping the kid, in the heat of the moment, will just come to you and say, "I'm sorry, Mr. Ref. I said something I shouldn't have, and I apologize."

That's pretty unrealistic, if you ask me.

So, what you've done now is put the player in a position where he/she either has to lie ("I didn't say anything" or simply "nothing"), or is forced to repeat himself/herself, which you've expressly asked him or her to do, so how are you then going to ding the player for it? That's called entrapment.

If you are 100% sure you hear it the first time, whack the first time. If you aren't 100% sure of what you hear the first time, either ignore it, or say something more constructive than "What did you say?" such as "Now, I thought I heard you say something, but I couldn't be sure. If I catch you saying something inappropriate, it's going to be a technical foul. You got me?"

You truly are aptly named.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by fullor30

"What did you say" is code for I'll give you chance to informally take back what was said. We've all done it with our kids(or wives and live to tell about it). It's being generous. I might say it if comment was mumbled and I caught the gist of it. IMHO in this case, a T is in order.

Can't agree more with teaching moment. I see it so much with coaches in AAU ball.

Maybe not everyone is aware of the informal codes you use on the basketball court. If you ask a question you should be expecting a response.

The players options are:

- Refuse to do what you instructed him to do and say nothing.
- Lie to you and say he said something else.
- Truthfully answer you.

You said you do this type of stuff with your kids. Do you want your kids lying to you? Do you want your kids to refuse to do what you told them to do? Or would you rather have them obey you?

Calling a technical foul after asking what was said is a terrible way to handle the situation. You asked a question and it was answered. If you didn't want to hear the answer then you shouldn't have asked the question.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by fullor30

You truly are aptly named.

Was there a response to the actual topic anywhere in there?

[reffish]

Originally Posted by asdf

If you change the setting in this situation from the basketball court to the 6th grade math class or the 6th grader's own home and the teacher or parent respond's with "what did you say ??"......

It's not baiting.

If the kid repeats the comment, he should get punished.

I will speak from the classroom teacher perspective: If you heard something, punish it, like the OP. "What did you say?" when you have already heard what was said is power tripping and baiting the kid. If you want to have a teaching moment with the kid, tell the kid that is inappropriate to say in class (or game) and move on. If you want to punish the kid, do it when you hear it! Reflection table (classroom) or technical (game).

In the OP, the kid learns that if a ref asks a question, he may or may not be punished, so when asked, lie! Now that's a lesson for a kid from an authority figure!

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by reffish

Reflection table (classroom)

I haven't been in a classroom in a few yrs and have never heard of this. Can you enlighten me on what this is (seriously) and at what ages it's used.

Thanks.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I haven't been in a classroom in a few yrs and have never heard of this. Can you enlighten me on what this is (seriously) and at what ages it's used.

Thanks.

Time Out

[Rich]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I haven't been in a classroom in a few yrs and have never heard of this. Can you enlighten me on what this is (seriously) and at what ages it's used.

Thanks.

It's new age mumbo jumbo that elementary (I hope) schools are fond of now.

My kid has to "take a break" if she's being naughty. She says some wacky pledge ("I will not use my hands or my words for hurting myself or others") after the Pledge of Allegiance every day.

But "reflection table" probably tops everything I've heard come out of my kid's school, which is a real feat.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Maybe not everyone is aware of the informal codes you use on the basketball court. If you ask a question you should be expecting a response.

The players options are:

- Refuse to do what you instructed him to do and say nothing.
- Lie to you and say he said something else.
- Truthfully answer you.

You said you do this type of stuff with your kids. Do you want your kids lying to you? Do you want your kids to refuse to do what you told them to do? Or would you rather have them obey you?

Calling a technical foul after asking what was said is a terrible way to handle the situation. You asked a question and it was answered. If you didn't want to hear the answer then you shouldn't have asked the question.

What did you say?

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by fullor30

What did you say?

I was explaining how you don't handle this type of situation well.

[Adam]

I'm sorry, but when I use this tactic on my kids, the answer is, invariably, "I'm sorry." It's not teaching them to lie or any of that garbage, it's reinforcing the fact that their tone, words, or behavior is unacceptable.

Do I use this on the court? No, I'll address it another way (with a T or direct words). But an official who does so is simply making an error in tactic, not baiting the kid. The T is for what the player said the first time, not for repeating it. Repeating it when asked is merely displaying a lack of remorse and reinforcing the decision to ring him up.

[VaTerp]

As someone who worked directly with kids for over 5 years (high school teacher, running youth sports camps, leagues) I think asking, "what did you say" and then assessing a T is TERRIBLE judgement.

You are essentially giving the kid two options: Admit to something we both already know you did and be punished for it or LIE and escape punishment. It doesnt take kids long to figure out lying is the better option for them.

Saying that you are giving a kid a chance to "back down" is just wrong. As a previous poster said its "power tripping" and a misuse of authority. If the kid lies about what he said he's not "backing down." He's lying to avoid punishment AND he's gotten away with saying something inappropriate without suffering any consequences or learning anything (other than that its ok to lie to avoid punisment).

The appropriate options IMO are to:

A) Assess T when you hear it
B) Tell the kid something to the effect of, "I didnt quite hear what you said but if I even think I hear you say something disrespectful or inappropriate again you'll be watching this game from the parking lot."

If you do make the mistake of asking, "what did you say," and the kid answers honestly I think at that point you have to "back down" and then say something like "don't say that again or I'm tossing you." Otherwise the kid learns nothing but lying and avoiding punishment is better than honesty and being punished. And it looks HIGHLY UNPROFESSIONAL to coaches and parents to see an official engage a kid in conversation and then whack them as a result.

In Varsity games if I hear a kid mumble things under their breath I either ignore it or say something like, "#12 play ball..." They usually get the message. On the rare occasion that I do a sub varsity or youth rec games, I have pretty much zero tolerance for "back talk." I find that if you don't nip it in the bud early a lot of these kids feel they can give a running commentary of the officiating and it irritates the .... out of me. I'll tell this kids before the game, "You're here to play, I'm here to officiate. Let's not get that confused." Whacking the first kid that runs his mouth usually gets the message across but I remember giving 5 Ts in 3 games on a rec league Saturday last year.