Substitution help ASAP

[moref]

Here is the situation.Team A has 8 players total.Later on in the game I had to whack a kid for pushing a team B player during a dead ball.School has a policy that if a player gets a T he must sit out the remainder of the game.Later a player gets injured so another player is out leaving them wit 6 players.Now 2 players foul out.I need a sub.Coach says he don't have one because one kid is injured and the other kid got a T.I forced him to bring in the kid that I whacked because he was an eligible sub.Coach not happy about it,but I am worried that if I don't make him sub the kid in that I would be in violation of a rule.Help me out here because I got a school upset with me about this.I think if he has a sub he must put him in.Am I wrong?Case book Rule 3 1.1 is what I found.I had a partner let a team finish with 4 one time when the had another player on the bench to sub,and he got in trouble and no playoff game because of this.

[just another ref]

If a player is suspended from the team for violating rules, I don't see why anyone would have a problem. Just don't let him reverse the suspension later in the same game.

[eyezen]

You were right, they must play with five if five eligible players are available. A "school" rule doesn't trump this (no different than a "five quarter in night situation").

Now having said that, the coach could of simply said he was injured and unavailable.

[Camron Rust]

If the coach says they're unavailable, they're unavailable. Play with 4. It doesn't matter it is an injury or disciplinary. We don't ask why nor do we need to know. The coach might just decide to send the kid to the locker room to avoid having to play them and we don't want to put them in that bind (we can not send the player to the locker room but that doesn't stop the coach from doing so).

For all you know, a bench player, in any other game that appears to be available, could be serving a state imposed suspension. Do you think that player should be forced to play? No.

[bob jenkins]

What Camron said. You wouldn't bring the player back if he was DQ'd becasue of a flagrant T -- and the league rules are that any T is to be treated as flagrant.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... Do you think that player should be forced to play? No.

Apparently someone in charge thinks so.

Originally Posted by moref

... I had a partner let a team finish with 4 one time when the had another player on the bench to sub,and he got in trouble and no playoff game because of this.

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

For all you know, a bench player, in any other game that appears to be available, could be serving a state imposed suspension. Do you think that player should be forced to play? No.

I've never seen a player in my roman province that was suspended, dressed and in the book.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by eyezen

I've never seen a player in my roman province that was suspended, dressed and in the book.

This player has been suspended by his school. They can't send him off without an adult, so they leave him on the bench. The local rule said he was ineligible to play, you should abide by that.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This player has been suspended by his school. They can't send him off without an adult, so they leave him on the bench. The local rule said he was ineligible to play, you should abide by that.

Then that is something that should be formally communicated to the association/assignor. The officials should know coming into the game that this is the expected/accepted practice. Based on the OP it seems an official got in trouble for adhering to the school policy.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by eyezen

You were right, they must play with five if five eligible players are available. A "school" rule doesn't trump this (no different than a "five quarter in night situation").

Now having said that, the coach could of simply said he was injured and unavailable.

Sitch:
B has 7 players, but two foul out.
After the 2nd player fouls out, the coach tells you he only has four eligible players because B15 has reached his maximum quarters for the day.
Are you telling me you're going to tell the coach he has to break the state participation rules? Based on what?

The rule says they have to play with 5 if they have 5 eligible players. If the coach tells me he isn't eligible, he isn't eligible.

[bainsey]

Bob summed it up -- all technical fouls are flagrant here.

I'm going to assume that this was something lower than high school ball. If I'm working something at that level, I usually ask in pre-game if there are any special rules that we should know (no pressing rules, etc.), so we're not caught by surprise. As BNR suggested, let the assigner know about this rule, so others are made aware.

In addition, clarify whether ALL technical fouls are flagrant. I can't imagine tossing a kid for reaching through the plane and touching the ball (and a few other non-unsportsmanlike infractions).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Bob summed it up -- all technical fouls are flagrant here.

I'm going to assume that this was something lower than high school ball. If I'm working something at that level, I usually ask in pre-game if there are any special rules that we should know (no pressing rules, etc.), so we're not caught by surprise. As BNR suggested, let the assigner know about this rule, so others are made aware.

In addition, clarify whether ALL technical fouls are flagrant. I can't imagine tossing a kid for reaching through the plane and touching the ball (and a few other non-unsportsmanlike infractions).

1. Turns out it's a school policy rather than a league rule; and it's a policy I applaud.

2. I'm not treating them like flagrants, the coach gets to make that choice according to school policy. He may well decide not to enact it if the T is for breaking the plane and hitting the ball. That's why I'd rather not know before the fact, so I don't alter the way I call a game.

3. The player is, essentially, suspended even if he's in uniform. I'm not forcing the coach to either play the kid or lie (he's injured). If I need to answer to an assigner for that, so be it.

[habram]

I do agree with all that stated if the caoch says that a player is injured or not available then we must continue the game without questions

[KCRC]

So, it sounds like the consensus is the coach determines eligibility. From a practical standpoint, I think that is a good idea. The only problem then is that the rule requiring 5 players really has no teeth.


In the OP, the school had a rule that any T requires the offender to sit for the rest of the game. Well, what if the coach has a rule: any player who shoots before the ball has been passed 4 times is suspended for the rest of the game. You ask for a fifth player, coach says he has no other eligible players. You say OK. If so, then the rule really isn't a rule IMO.

[bob jenkins]

In any situation like that (esp. if it's a "School rule" as opposed to a "league rule"), that information is going in a game report. That should be done whether you fall on the "force the team to play with five" or "allow the team to play with four" side of the debate. SOmeone (AD, state, etc.) will get it corrected for future games.