Varisty coach knows the rule #1

[deecee]

So yesterday I was doing a fun JV boys game and of course one team's varsity coach was in the stands (front row).

Had a situation where we were administering FT's for his team and while I was bouncing the ball to the FT (ball had just left my hand) the opposing team's coach requests a TO and my partner grants it.

So VHC starts explaining the rule that we just messed up that the TO couldn't be granted since his player had the ball. This is where I screwed up and I make eye contact. So here comes the line that proved he had to be right. "I'm not a parent but also the varsity coach."

Yes I know since he has one of the 3 better programs in the county. Here's where I screwed up the second time. I told him to re-read rule 4 (definitions) section 6or7 the one pertaining to Disposal of player and also the section on Live versus dead ball (I got the section wrong but I was in the vicinity).

Then comes line #2 that double proves he is right. "You guys don't know the rules. You have butchered at least 3 of them this game." Ripe opportunity for me to go for the trifecta and say sometime that would have embarrassd him but I decided that I was just going to zip it and finish the game.

Came home and opened the rule and case book and couldn't find anything that proved I was wrong I was able to sleep snugly at night.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by deecee

Ripe opportunity for me to go for the trifecta and say sometime that would have embarrassd him but I decided that I was just going to zip it and finish the game.

You already embarrassed yourself enough by speaking to someone in the stands in the first place. It's never a good thing to engage a fan and especially a coach when they are sitting in the stands.

[Toren]

5-8-3 Granting a timeout when the ball is dead...

6-1-2(c) The ball becomes live when on free throw it is at the disposal of the free thrower

And stop talking to people in the stands

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by deecee

Had a situation where we were administering FT's for his team and while I was bouncing the ball to the FT (ball had just left my hand) the opposing team's coach requests a TO and my partner grants it.

So VHC starts explaining the rule that we just messed up that the TO couldn't be granted since his player had the ball.

Had the ball just left your hand, or did his player have the ball?

Came home and opened the rule and case book and couldn't find anything that proved I was wrong I was able to sleep snugly at night.

Ah -- but did you find something that indicated you were right?

It's there, and whether you were right depends on the answer to my question above.

If you choose to engage a fan (or a coach), a phrase from the rule book often helps, at least in my experience.

[jTheUmp]

So he tucked his whistle in?

(* slowly backs out of thread *)

[rpirtle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Had the ball just left your hand, or did his player have the ball?

Bob, in his original post (which I'm sure you re-read) DeeCee says the..."ball had just left my hand...". So the ball was not at the disposal of the shooter yet. It appears that the opposing Coach's TO was granted correctly. Would you agree..??

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rpirtle

Bob, in his original post (which I'm sure you re-read) DeeCee says the..."ball had just left my hand...".

But the coach said "his player had the ball."

So, there's a discrepancy either in the description or in the perception of what happened.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rpirtle

Bob, in his original post (which I'm sure you re-read) DeeCee says the..."ball had just left my hand...". So the ball was not at the disposal of the shooter yet. It appears that the opposing Coach's TO was granted correctly. Would you agree..??

bob was probably confused by the statement that he (deecee) couldn't find anything to support his call.

[JugglingReferee]

The TO was granted when the shooter had the ball.

The TO was requested just after the ball left the official's hands.

So in the time the ball reached the shooter, the official was determining if the request was grantable.

[deecee]

The discrepancy came when in order of action.

I begin the bouncing motion to the free throw shooter

Coach (loud enough that the whole gym hears) requests a time out pretty much as soon as the first action occurs

Ball reaches free throw shooter

My partner blows the whistle

I wanted to get into the intricacies of when the time out is granted versus the actual whistle being blown with the coach after the game (since i walked right by him after i changed and was leaving the facility), as well as clarify a bit on the concept of disposal and live ball dead ball but knowing his personality it would have been a waste of calories.

By saying I couldn't find anything that proved I was wrong was that I found what proved me right.

@Smitty - it is not an embarrassment to address a fan. There are situations when it might happen. Right before in bounds before a quarter a fan has asked me about something that happened in the game and depending on how they ask I could very well offer them an answer.

[JugglingReferee]

You have to know your audience.

I am in a small town. We have about 40 names TOPS in my local association - and some of those can't do higher level ball. We have some of the biggest tournaments around, so we can work a lot.

Because it's a small town, word can get around fast, and it does. There is almost always a small degree of separation between an official and most spectators.

Most comments are ignored, but if Mr. W, my grade 5 teacher, and coach from the time I was 5 until I was 11, asks me a question (nicely) when he is a spectator, you can be certain that I'm going to answer him. Besides, they all know enough to only ask questions if they're in the front row at the facility.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Smitty

You already embarrassed yourself enough by speaking to someone in the stands in the first place.

Sheesh. That's a bit much. There are lots of scenarios where talking to a fan in the stands is completely benign. Was this one of them? I'm not so sure, but saying it's an embarrassment is certainly over dramatizing things.

[Smitty]

Maybe "never" was an overstatement, but when a fan/coach is obviously agitated, as in the OP, there's nothing good that can come of engaging that person - especially during the game. The person that typically comes out looking like an a$$ is the official.

Of course if you know someone or someone asks you a casual question with respect, that's an entirely different scenario.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by deecee

So yesterday I was doing a fun JV boys game and of course one team's varsity coach was in the stands (front row).

Had a situation where we were administering FT's for his team and while I was bouncing the ball to the FT (ball had just left my hand) the opposing team's coach requests a TO and my partner grants it.

So VHC starts explaining the rule that we just messed up that the TO couldn't be granted since his player had the ball. This is where I screwed up and I make eye contact. So here comes the line that proved he had to be right. "I'm not a parent but also the varsity coach."

Yes I know since he has one of the 3 better programs in the county. Here's where I screwed up the second time. I told him to re-read rule 4 (definitions) section 6or7 the one pertaining to Disposal of player and also the section on Live versus dead ball (I got the section wrong but I was in the vicinity).

Then comes line #2 that double proves he is right. "You guys don't know the rules. You have butchered at least 3 of them this game." Ripe opportunity for me to go for the trifecta and say sometime that would have embarrassd him but I decided that I was just going to zip it and finish the game.

Came home and opened the rule and case book and couldn't find anything that proved I was wrong I was able to sleep snugly at night.

When the NFHS and NCAA changed the FT mechanic to the L bouncing the ball to the shooter and allowing the administering official to bounce the ball to the thrower for designated spot throw-ins except for that type of throw-in along a team's front court end line it made officials have to work a little harder to earn the big bucks we are paid for every game that we officiate.

A number of things come into play in situations like this. So lets look at a backcourt or sideline throw-in and see if this play is any different from OP.

We all know that a Dead Ball (DB) becomes a Live Ball (LB) when it is at the disposal of the thrower. When we hand the ball to the shooter or thrower it easy to tell when the ball is at the disposal of the shooter or thrower.

But, bouncing the ball changes the paradigm as to when "at the disposal of" begins.

I have no problem with defining "at the disposal of" to begin when the shooter or thrower catches the bounce pass for the official, and therefore the DB does not become a LB until the player catches the official's pass. But I have always had a problem with that time period between the time that the ball left the official's hands and the time that the player catches the ball.

In the "ancient days" there was a phrase that one will not find in rules anymore: "an imminent change of status". The phrase was applicable to the following situations: A LB was about to become a DB or a DB was about to become a LB because 80% of a five- or ten-second count had expired, therefore a team who was normally entitled to have its TO request TO would not have its TO request honored.

Therefore ever since the NFHS and NCAA made its aforementioned mechanics change I have had reservations about that period of time between the moment the official releases the ball on a pass to the shooter or thrower and the moment when the player catches the ball. I have always thought "an imminent change of status" is the best way to describe this time period.

After struggling for the last three hours on this post, I have realized that all I have written is just some historical information which may supply a different point of view as to how to look at the OP.

MTD, Sr.

[APG]

I have no idea what is troubling you about this play MTD? The ball is either live or dead. In this case, you have a dead ball up until the player catches the ball. Seems simple enough?