Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 801049)

Seems to me the NCAA rule quoted by rut (using "caused") is different than the high school rule last to touch.)

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 801051)

I don't think it's functionally different. The violation is still first to touch. Instead of last to touch we have caused to go. I think who ever touched it last in the front court is the one who caused it to go to the back court. However, I'm strictly a NFHS guy, so I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 801032)

Cameron,

I am still trying to figure out what I said was wrong. If you are touching the backcourt the ball is in the backcourt as a ball handler right. If the player took the ball to the backcourt, that is a violation if they were in possession of the ball or touching the ball in the FC first, which would have been the only way this was a violation in this play.

This is the NCAA Rule:
Section 12. Ball in Back Court

Art. 1. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in his or her back court (with any part of his or her body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from the front court while the player’s team was in team control and the player or a teammate caused the ball to go into the back court.

The question for me was always if TC ended with the OSU team and the Duke player took it over. Or if Duke player simply tipped the ball away then the OSU player was already in the BC, then that would not be a violation if they contacted the ball. And if it was so close to not tell, that is why I feel it probably was not called. But it looked to me like the OSU player might have taken the ball to the BC. I guess I do not see that as what we typically call a first to touch, last to touch situation as the issue is not who was first and last, the ball had FC status, then BC status by the player in control of the ball. Just like a player that is being trapped near the division line and steps into the BC or on the division line.

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 801053)

If the Duke player touched the ball before the OSU player did, then that is not a violation.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 801057)

The phrase in the NCAA rule about causing the ball to GO into the backcourt is the equivalent to last to touch. It is not the same as causing the ball to BE OOB...which occurs when they are touched by the ball. The defensive player who deflected it towards the backcourt is the one who caused to ball to GO to the backcourt. Your statement about a player who was in the backcourt and touched by the ball is only a violation if a teamate was the one to deflected/passed/touched the ball causing it to GO to the backcourt.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 801057)

I agree with everything you said in the 2nd paragraph....and they are all last to touch, first to touch situations. The backcourt rule simply revolves around the very moment the gains backcourt status and who touched it just before that moment and who touches it just after that moment...even if it is the same touch.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 801057)

The phrase in the NCAA rule about causing the ball to GO into the backcourt is the equivalent to last to touch. It is not the same as causing the ball to BE OOB...which occurs when they are touched by the ball. The defensive player who deflected it towards the backcourt is the one who caused to ball to GO to the backcourt. Your statement about a player who was in the backcourt and touched by the ball is only a violation if a teamate was the one to deflected/passed/touched the ball causing it to GO to the backcourt.

....

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 801093)

In the Duke/OSU play how did the defender cause the ball to go to the backcourt? The ball itself never reached the backcourt. It only attained that status when the OSU player touched the ball.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 801108)

...
The OSU player didn't cause the ball to come to him when he touched it...the Duke player caused it to be there.

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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 801110)

The Duke player caused the ball to be where?

I know what you are saying but I'm really just playing a game of semantics b/c quite often folks here have a condescending attitude towards anybody who understands the "Struckoff" interpretation of the play as if we're a bunch of idiots.

The wording of the backcourt rules could be tweeked to eliminate any chance of debate, but then folks would be offended because when they see a rule one way and one way only anybody who comes up a possible alternative interpration is also an idiot who now wants the entire rule book re-written for their own benefit. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 800672)

Mary Struckoff would tell you this is a violation.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 801122)

For the record I do not care about the Struckoff interpretation. This was a college game with NCAA Rules. She does not control the Men's side and never did. I was not even thinking of her NF Interpretation anyway.

Peace