The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   APG Video Request (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/83519-apg-video-request.html)

JRutledge Wed Nov 30, 2011 01:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 800798)
So you're arguing in favor of the dreaded NFHS interpretation? I can't see a touch being both simultaneously the last in the frontcourt and the first in the backcourt.

I am not arguing anything actually, remember you asked me why this mattered. If a ball touches a player that is touching the backcourt, the ball is in the backcourt by rule. And if a team is in continuous team control when they touch the ball in that circumstance, then they have violated. The Ohio State player caused the ball to be in the back court by beginning a dribble and touching the backcourt, if you deem that team control was never lost by them. First to touch and last to touch is not the only way you can have a backcourt violation.

Peace

Camron Rust Wed Nov 30, 2011 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800808)
I am not arguing anything actually, remember you asked me why this mattered. If a ball touches a player that is touching the backcourt, the ball is in the backcourt by rule. And if a team is in continuous team control when they touch the ball in that circumstance, then they have violated. The Ohio State player caused the ball to be in the back court by beginning a dribble and touching the backcourt, if you deem that team control was never lost by them.

But causing the ball to be in the backcourt isn't a violation.
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800808)
First to touch and last to touch is not the only way you can have a backcourt violation.

Peace

Actually, it is.

If the OSU player was in the BC when they touched the ball that was previously touched by a Duke player, it is not a violation.

Welpe Wed Nov 30, 2011 02:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800808)
And if a team is in continuous team control when they touch the ball in that circumstance, then they have violated. The Ohio State player caused the ball to be in the back court by beginning a dribble and touching the backcourt, if you deem that team control was never lost by them.

Please cite the NFHS rule reference for this.

JRutledge Wed Nov 30, 2011 02:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 800823)
Please cite the NFHS rule reference for this.

Site a rule where I am wrong?

I also looked at the video again and it looks like the player touched the ball in the FC and then stepped into the BC. It is really close and as I said before I can see why it was not called if that was the case.

Peace

Adam Wed Nov 30, 2011 04:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800828)
Site a rule where I am wrong?

9-9-1, "if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt." Or is there another rule you know of that makes it a violation.

Camron Rust Wed Nov 30, 2011 05:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800828)
Site a rule where I am wrong?

Cite a rule that says it is a violation....if there isn't one, its legal.
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800828)
I also looked at the video again and it looks like the player touched the ball in the FC and then stepped into the BC. It is really close and as I said before I can see why it was not called if that was the case.

Peace

Nothing like changing your description of the play to make your ruling correct. ;)

JRutledge Wed Nov 30, 2011 06:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 800886)
Cite a rule that says it is a violation....if there isn't one, its legal.


Nothing like changing your description of the play to make your ruling correct. ;)

So if he touches the ball while in the FC and then is dribbling and touches the BC, you are saying that is not a violation?

Peace

Camron Rust Wed Nov 30, 2011 07:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800918)
So if he touches the ball while in the FC and then is dribbling and touches the BC, you are saying that is not a violation?

Peace

No, the situation was that the player was in the backcourt while the ball bounced up from the frontcourt and the player (still in the backcourt) then touched the ball (which had frontcourt status until it was touched) and started a dribble....no violation. That player was not the last to touch the ball BEFORE it went to the backcourt (by being touched by the player who was in the backcourt).

IF that player had touched the ball to start the dribble while he had frontcourt status, then stepped into the backcourt, it would be a violation, but that is not the situation being discussed or the one you described earlier....

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800808)
If a ball touches a player that is touching the backcourt, the ball is in the backcourt by rule. And if a team is in continuous team control when they touch the ball in that circumstance, then they have violated. The Ohio State player caused the ball to be in the back court by beginning a dribble and touching the backcourt, if you deem that team control was never lost by them. First to touch and last to touch is not the only way you can have a backcourt violation.

Peace


JRutledge Wed Nov 30, 2011 07:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 800932)
No, the situation was that the player was in the backcourt while the ball bounced up from the frontcourt and the player then touched the ball to start a dribble....no violation. That player was no the last to touch the ball BEFORE it went to the backcourt (by being touched by the player who was in the backcourt).

It looks to me that he touched the ball before his feet were in the backcourt. I will look at it again but if he is dribbling and touches the backcourt that is not a last to touch, first to touch situation. That is a player taking a ball to the back court.

Peace

Welpe Wed Nov 30, 2011 07:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800933)
I will look at it again but if he is dribbling and touches the backcourt that is not a last to touch, first to touch situation. That is a player taking a ball to the back court.

So again, if it is not first to touch/last to touch what rule prohibits this?

Camron Rust Thu Dec 01, 2011 02:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800933)
It looks to me that he touched the ball before his feet were in the backcourt. I will look at it again but if he is dribbling and touches the backcourt that is not a last to touch, first to touch situation. That is a player taking a ball to the back court.

Peace

If that is what happened, then you'd be right, but that is not what you or others stated earlier.

JRutledge Thu Dec 01, 2011 03:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 800975)
If that is what happened, then you'd be right, but that is not what you or others stated earlier.

Actually I said that if the ball was brought into the BC by the OSU player it would be a violation and that is not first to touch, last to touch situation. But it is hard to tell because there was no close up to when the player touched the ball and that is what I was thinking when I first saw the play. I cannot speak for what others said, I can only speak for myself and what I witnessed.

Peace

Camron Rust Thu Dec 01, 2011 04:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800976)
Actually I said that if the ball was brought into the BC by the OSU player it would be a violation and that is not first to touch, last to touch situation...
Peace

That is precisely a last to touch, first to touch situation. If that was what happened, the player was touching the ball before it went to the backcourt (last to touch), was still touching the ball at the moment it went to the backcourt, and continued touching it in the backcourt (first to touch).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800976)

I cannot speak for what others said, I can only speak for myself and what I witnessed.

Peace

Which is why I quoted you. Here is what you said....

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 800808)
If a ball touches a player that is touching the backcourt, the ball is in the backcourt by rule. And if a team is in continuous team control when they touch the ball in that circumstance, then they have violated. The Ohio State player caused the ball to be in the back court by beginning a dribble and touching the backcourt, if you deem that team control was never lost by them. First to touch and last to touch is not the only way you can have a backcourt violation.

Peace

The statement in red is incorrect.

JRutledge Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:30am

Cameron,

I am still trying to figure out what I said was wrong. If you are touching the backcourt the ball is in the backcourt as a ball handler right. If the player took the ball to the backcourt, that is a violation if they were in possession of the ball or touching the ball in the FC first, which would have been the only way this was a violation in this play.

This is the NCAA Rule:
Section 12. Ball in Back Court

Art. 1. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in his or her back court (with any part of his or her body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from the front court while the player’s team was in team control and the player or a teammate caused the ball to go into the back court.

The question for me was always if TC ended with the OSU team and the Duke player took it over. Or if Duke player simply tipped the ball away then the OSU player was already in the BC, then that would not be a violation if they contacted the ball. And if it was so close to not tell, that is why I feel it probably was not called. But it looked to me like the OSU player might have taken the ball to the BC. I guess I do not see that as what we typically call a first to touch, last to touch situation as the issue is not who was first and last, the ball had FC status, then BC status by the player in control of the ball. Just like a player that is being trapped near the division line and steps into the BC or on the division line.

Peace

Eastshire Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:55am

The problem with the angle we have is that we can't see for sure when the first touch takes place. It seems to me that the OSU player had to have touched it while still in the front court, or the ball's momentum would have taken it further into the back court.

However, from what we can see, the OSU player is in the back court when he touches a ball last played/touched by an opponent, which is not a violation even if OSU has team control.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:31pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1