Greatest player - really

[Mark Padgett]

A few more thing about Mikan. While in college, he scored 53 points in a game (which was unheard of in that time) which was more points than the entire opposing team!!! I have never heard of anyone else doing this at the college or pro level.

Also, he was the first man to ever goaltend. This caused the NCAA to institute the goaltending rule, which up until Mikan did it, was legal because it was thought that being able to get up above the rim to block a shot was impossible!

He was voted the best basketball player of the first half of the 20th century by the Basketball Writers of America.

When the league widened the lane (due to Mikan being so dominant) before one season began, the owner of the Lakers threatened to pull his team from the league. He thought it was unfair to make a rule change due to the ability of only one player. He changed his mind, though, thank goodness.

[Joe]

"He was voted the best basketball player of the first half of the 20th century by the Basketball Writers of America."

The all white half:

http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/fame8_20030408.htm

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
A few more thing about Mikan. While in college, he scored 53 points in a game (which was unheard of in that time) which was more points than the entire opposing team!!! I have never heard of anyone else doing this at the college or pro level.

Also, he was the first man to ever goaltend. This caused the NCAA to institute the goaltending rule, which up until Mikan did it, was legal because it was thought that being able to get up above the rim to block a shot was impossible!

He was voted the best basketball player of the first half of the 20th century by the Basketball Writers of America.

When the league widened the lane (due to Mikan being so dominant) before one season began, the owner of the Lakers threatened to pull his team from the league. He thought it was unfair to make a rule change due to the ability of only one player. He changed his mind, though, thank goodness.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

I was at the First Union Center in Philadelphia last night. I was lucky enough to see Iverson's 54-point playoff game against the Raptors two years ago, but last night was amazing. He couldn't miss. 55 points and 8 assists, which could've been 13-15 if his teammates weren't having such terrible games.

Given that he's adjusted his game to score like that only when needed, and that he does this all at less than 6 feet and 160 pounds, and that I just saw him play in person, I'm ready to make an argument for him!

[wizard]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach Given that he's adjusted his game to score like that only when needed, and that he does this all at less than 6 feet and 160 pounds, and that I just saw him play in person, I'm ready to make an argument for him!

I understand your point. But being considered the greatest player of all requires more than individual stats. Does he make the others around him better? I heard many coaches say that the best players nedd to be the hardest worker on the team. Does he fit this? I don't think so.

Don't get me wrong. He's very talented. But the best ever? Ask Larry Brown and see what his answer is to that question.

[Mark Padgett]

Here's two other career records Mikan holds that will never be broken:

1) most shots legally goaltended
2) most games played wearing number 99

[Joe]

I agree Iverson hasn't consistently made those around
him better, but last night he was great. He would have
had 15+ assists if his teamates made layups. Moreover, "the
best defense (sometimes) IS a great offense." Iverson literally took the NO guards out of the game with foul trouble.

As far as hard working, "many coaches" look at steals
for hussle stats:

http://www.nba.com/history/all_time_...sSPGQuery.html

While Iverson's steals PG stats may go down as he gets older and slower, right now he's still ahead of some of the most legendary "hard workers" in the history of the game.

Another thought, regarding making those around you better,
would Magic or Stockton be at the top of the assist list if
they hadn't played with the likes of Kareem and Malone? It's
a chicken or the egg kind of question, and I think they were
both great passers, but I wonder. Iverson doesn't have anyone even close to pass to. Nor did Jordan.

Originally posted by wizard

I understand your point. But being considered the greatest player of all requires more than individual stats. Does he make the others around him better? I heard many coaches say that the best players nedd to be the hardest worker on the team. Does he fit this? I don't think so.

Don't get me wrong. He's very talented. But the best ever? Ask Larry Brown and see what his answer is to that question.

[Joe]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Here's two other career records Mikan holds that will never be broken:

1) most shots legally goaltended
2) most games played wearing number 99

add:

3) being MVP shooting 40%

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Joe
Another thought, regarding making those around you better,
would Magic or Stockton be at the top of the assist list if
they hadn't played with the likes of Kareem and Malone?

This is the type of statement that can never be resolved due to the nature of the logic. Almost all individual sports stats are, to some extent, dependent on the performance of teammates.

Imagine how many yards and touchdowns Walter Payton would have had if he played behind an all-star line like some running backs did.

[Joe]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

This is the type of statement that can never be resolved due to the nature of the logic. Almost all individual sports stats are, to some extent, dependent on the performance of teammates.

Imagine how many yards and touchdowns Walter Payton would have had if he played behind an all-star line like some running backs did.

I agree, it's just a thought provoked by Iverson's performance last night, and counting the assists blown
by his teamates.... and thinking back to all the scorers
Magic had to pass to. Hey, this whole "whose the greatest"
thread "can never be resolved due to the nature of the logic." That didn't keep YOU from asking though. ;-)

Speaking of running backs, imagine OJ on a good team. Payton
*did* have good teams for a while.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Joe

Speaking of running backs, imagine OJ on a good team. Payton *did* have good teams for a while.

OJ ran behind some all-pro guards. Payton's line was mediocre at best. When he was on the Bears, they usually had a great defense, not offensive line. BTW - the most enjoyable runner to watch, IMHO, was Gayle Sayers. He truly was poetry in motion.

[ausref23]

In my opinion, you have two catagories here - old school & new school. The greatest old school player just has to be Julius "Dr J" Erving. New school has to be MJ. Great debate guys, keep it up.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
I was at the First Union Center in Philadelphia last night. I was lucky enough to see Iverson's 54-point playoff game against the Raptors two years ago, but last night was amazing. He couldn't miss. 55 points and 8 assists, which could've been 13-15 if his teammates weren't having such terrible games.

Given that he's adjusted his game to score like that only when needed, and that he does this all at less than 6 feet and 160 pounds, and that I just saw him play in person, I'm ready to make an argument for him!

Call back when he's won 4 or 6 or 8 championships.

Originally posted by wizard
I understand your point. But being considered the greatest player of all requires more than individual stats. Does he make the others around him better? I heard many coaches say that the best players nedd to be the hardest worker on the team. Does he fit this? I don't think so.

No, he doesn't. He hates practice, remember?

Originally posted by Joe
As far as hard working, "many coaches" look at steals
for hussle stats:

While Iverson's steals PG stats may go down as he gets older and slower, right now he's still ahead of some of the most legendary "hard workers" in the history of the game.

Jordan led the league is steals the first few years he was in the league. He averaged close to 3 steals per game early in his career. I think you're correct that AI's steal total will diminish as he gets older.

In fact, I bet he won't have 2500 after 1072 games.

BTW, notice where Magic is on the list. Supports my contention that he wasn't as good defensively. Also, Michael blocked 893 shots in his career, compared to only 374 for Magic.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by Joe

add:

3) being MVP shooting 40%

Not 40%, but Iverson shot 42% the year he won MVP. And according to http://www.basketballreference.com, Mikan was never MVP, that the award only started in the late 50s.

Oh, and I don't really think Iverson can be in the discussion for best ever yet. He has to win some titles and maintain his "team-first" attitude for the rest of his career.

But it does bother me that many have judged him a couple of years ago and haven't looked or listened lately. He is a different guy. Coach Brown has made him understand how to use his individual talents and be a team player. Even his teammates Sunday night were saying how his shots came in the flow of the offense.

Mike Wilbon predicted that Iverson will lead the national team this summer in scoring and assists. I think T-Mac will outscore him, but that says a lot about the kind of player he has become.

[Joe]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Not 40%, but Iverson shot 42% the year he won MVP. And according to http://www.basketballreference.com, Mikan was never MVP, that the award only started in the late 50s."

I was being sarcastic, but my point is, compared to other
big men (or even a lot of guards) in ANY other era, he shot a low percentage:

http://www.nba.com/history/all_time_...sFGPQuery.html

"Oh, and I don't really think Iverson can be in the discussion for best ever yet. He has to win some titles and maintain his "team-first" attitude for the rest of his career."

I agree. A true center and a Kerr or Paxson type shooter might help though. How many times does AI draw the entire defense into the paint, kick it to Snow or someone for an open three, and then they drive it right back into the teeth of the D?

"But it does bother me that many have judged him a couple of years ago and haven't looked or listened lately. He is a different guy. Coach Brown has made him understand how to use his individual talents and be a team player. Even his teammates Sunday night were saying how his shots came in the flow of the offense."

I agree.... a few more 50+ point / 15 assist (make your layups guys) playoff wins might do the trick. I doubt he'll
ever be in Jordan's class, but he should get more respect
if he can keep games like that coming.

"Mike Wilbon predicted that Iverson will lead the national team this summer in scoring and assists. I think T-Mac will outscore him, but that says a lot about the kind of player he has become. [/B]

[Joe]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Jordan led the league is steals the first few years he was in the league. He averaged close to 3 steals per game early in his career. I think you're correct that AI's steal total will diminish as he gets older.

In fact, I bet he won't have 2500 after 1072 games.

BTW, notice where Magic is on the list. Supports my contention that he wasn't as good defensively. Also, Michael blocked 893 shots in his career, compared to only 374 for Magic.

Yes and yes.

I agree, interesting that Dr. J is well up the list (the only small forward on the list, and I don't think this includes his ABA stats). In fact, a lot of the late 70's, early 80's 76er's show up on the various stat lists:

http://www.nba.com/history/all_time_...sBLKQuery.html

http://www.nba.com/history/all_time_...sFGPQuery.html

Which brings up the question, who had the greatest team ever? Although they only had one great year (Dr. J was getting on when Moses arrived, and then Moses got hurt) I like the 82-83 76ers:

http://www.nba.com/history/season/19821983.html