Its All About Me?

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would never even consider giving any advice or instruction to a veteran official unless they were at a camp or setting where they are asking for advice. Like if they attend a camp where I am a clinician or running the game. Otherwise I respect their experience and let them work their game. If they want my advice they will have to ask, much like the rookies or lesser experienced officials.

Peace

It's not even about giving advice or instruction when it's not asked for. It's about some veteran officials feeling like they are above criticism.

For example, last year I was working a JV game with the varsity refs watching. We had a player who slapped the backboard while (in our judgment) attempting to block a shot. The ball was in the cylinder and fell out. No call. After the game, both officials were all over us about why we didn't call basket interference. When I told them it's because that's not the rule, they both backtracked and said we should have at least called the technical. "What if the slap of the backboard wasn't intentional?" I asked. Doesn't matter, they said. When I, again, informed them that's not what the rule says, they both gave me a lecture about reffing in "the real world."

I've had several experiences like that with veteran officials who, because they are veterans, don't want to hear anything in terms of rules correction from someone who has fewer years of experience than they do.

So, like I said, I don't think it's a one-way street in terms of being accepting of criticism.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by fiasco

...
So, like I said, I don't think it's a one-way street in terms of being accepting of criticism.

Maybe not, but this thread is from a newer official pondering why it seems veteran officials don't do more to help mentor younger officials.

[JRutledge]

This is what was said back in post #5 in this thread.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have found that a lot of newer officials are not truly interested in any type of criticism, constructive or otherwise, so I mind my business until someone shows me some sort of interest in learning.

You quoted him and then said this.

Originally Posted by fiasco

Funny, I've found the same to be true about a lot of veteran officials.

What you talked about what not about constructive criticism. You talked about a disagreement someone might have about a rule, mechanic or interpretation.

My question to you is what learning is a veteran going to need to hear from a rookie? So a guy that is working a JV game and has a full schedule of JV games, you honestly think a veteran or person that has much more experience and a varsity or college schedule is going to listen to those opinions with a straight face?

Really that I am getting at. Then you told a story about a disagreement over a rule. I do not think these are the same thing. And it certainly not the same thing as a veteran not wanting to help a rookie as suggested in the OP.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

T

My question to you is what learning is a veteran going to need to hear from a rookie? So a guy that is working a JV game and has a full schedule of JV games, you honestly think a veteran or person that has much more experience and a varsity or college schedule is going to listen to those opinions with a straight face?



Really that I am getting at. Then you told a story about a disagreement over a rule. I do not think these are the same thing. And it certainly not the same thing as a veteran not wanting to help a rookie as suggested in the OP.

Peace

I love how you boil everything down to your own personal interpretation of what a conversation is or isn't about.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I love how you boil everything down to your own personal interpretation of what a conversation is or isn't about.

It is really not a big deal either way. I was commenting on your response to a very specific comment you made. If you feel that there are veterans that do not want criticism and that is something that keeps you up and night, be my guest. Now what does that do for your career?

If you want to know the truth, I think people spend too much time worrying about what people do with them involved then worrying about themselves. I do not care who accepts or dislikes criticism because I am too worried about doing my job. If someone wants my help I will give it to them if they ask and if they take it in the spirit in which it was intended. People in other aspects of life do not want to help those they do not know or have direct involvement with, so why would we think that takes place in officiating? If you ask me there is too much whining about what someone else is not doing for you. While there should be more concern is what am I going to do to get better. And if one person does not want to help, I move to the people that will. There are over 6000 officials in my state, I am lucky if I even trust the opinion of only 4 of them. At least to the point where I am going to make big changes based on the opinions they might give.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is really not a big deal either way. I was commenting on your response to a very specific comment you made. If you feel that there are veterans that do not want criticism and that is something that keeps you up and night, be my guest. Now what does that do for your career?

You're funny. You think because I post something on an internet message board, it keeps me up at night.

If you want to know the truth, I think people spend too much time worrying about what people do with them involved then worrying about themselves. I do not care who accepts or dislikes criticism because I am too worried about doing my job. If someone wants my help I will give it to them if they ask and if they take it in the spirit in which it was intended. People in other aspects of life do not want to help those they do not know or have direct involvement with, so why would we think that takes place in officiating? If you ask me there is too much whining about what someone else is not doing for you. While there should be more concern is what am I going to do to get better. And if one person does not want to help, I move to the people that will. There are over 6000 officials in my state, I am lucky if I even trust the opinion of only 4 of them. At least to the point where I am going to make big changes based on the opinions they might give.

If that really were the case, I would think you would have just said that at the beginning of the thread, rather than engaging in a tit-for-tat with me.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

You're funny. You think because I post something on an internet message board, it keeps me up at night.

I do not know what keeps you up at night and not the point.

Originally Posted by fiasco

If that really were the case, I would think you would have just said that at the beginning of the thread, rather than engaging in a tit-for-tat with me.

I asked for clarification of your original statement. You went on a rant about how some guy argued with you about a rule which I am still trying to figure out what that has to do with what you responded to. Not the same thing in my opinion and really not as big of a deal as you are making it to be.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

It's not even about giving advice or instruction when it's not asked for. It's about some veteran officials feeling like they are above criticism.

For example, last year I was working a JV game with the varsity refs watching. We had a player who slapped the backboard while (in our judgment) attempting to block a shot. The ball was in the cylinder and fell out. No call. After the game, both officials were all over us about why we didn't call basket interference. When I told them it's because that's not the rule, they both backtracked and said we should have at least called the technical. "What if the slap of the backboard wasn't intentional?" I asked. Doesn't matter, they said. When I, again, informed them that's not what the rule says, they both gave me a lecture about reffing in "the real world."

What does that have to do with not taking criticism? That sounds like a disagreement of what the rule is or is not. I do not listen to anyone even when they are more veteran than me. I always consider the source.

Originally Posted by fiasco

I've had several experiences like that with veteran officials who, because they are veterans, don't want to hear anything in terms of rules correction from someone who has fewer years of experience than they do.

I teach a basketball class with very inexperienced officials in many cases. I get them trying to tell me what they interpret the rules are based on their very limited experience. What does that have to do criticism?

Originally Posted by fiasco

So, like I said, I don't think it's a one-way street in terms of being accepting of criticism.

Well often it is the younger and inexperienced officials that do not know what they are talking about or doing. All you have to do is read this board to figure that out sometimes. This is why most veterans say nothing if asked or if they know the person personally when we encounter officials we see in regular games. I almost only comment to younger officials when I know them or when I have been a clinician at their camp. And even then I have them ask when they want my evaluation. What you are describing is not what we are talking about. Because I will not accept much from someone I do not respect or feel has some knowledge that I can learn from. That is often not a 2 year officials.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What does that have to do with not taking criticism? That sounds like a disagreement of what the rule is or is not. I do not listen to anyone even when they are more veteran than me. I always consider the source.

It has everything to do with not taking criticism. I pointed out that their rules knowledge was lacking in this area (criticism), even showing them in the book and they blew me off repeatedly. It wasn't a "oh, I disagree, I think the rule is X." It was "You're the new guy, shut up because you don't know what you're talking about."

A good official who can take criticism would have said, "Hey, you know you're right. I didn't realize that, thanks for pointing it out," just as a good rookie would do when corrected by a veteran.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

It has everything to do with not taking criticism. I pointed out that their rules knowledge was lacking in this area (criticism), even showing them in the book and they blew me off repeatedly. It wasn't a "oh, I disagree, I think the rule is X." It was "You're the new guy, shut up because you don't know what you're talking about."

You seem to be on some personal stuff. That was not the point of previous comments.

Originally Posted by fiasco

A good official who can take criticism would have said, "Hey, you know you're right. I didn't realize that, thanks for pointing it out," just as a good rookie would do when corrected by a veteran.

Funny, I do not think I have ever seen that conversation between officials. OK, if that is what you think.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You seem to be on some personal stuff. That was not the point of previous comments.

Um, actually it was the point of the whole thread. The OP asked if anyone has ever experienced veteran officials who think "it's all about me." I have, and I related such an experience.

Funny, I do not think I have ever seen that conversation between officials. OK, if that is what you think.

Peace

You've never been involved or overheard a conversation where an official said "I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out?"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Um, actually it was the point of the whole thread. The OP asked if anyone has ever experienced veteran officials who think "it's all about me." I have, and I related such an experience.

That is not what you were responding to. You said that there was an equal number of veterans that were afraid to take criticism and it goes both ways.

Originally Posted by fiasco

You've never been involved or overheard a conversation where an official said "I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out?"

You did not just say it was a conversation where someone said they were right, you said a rookie told the veteran he was wrong and the veteran just said what you wanted them to. Usually those disagreements are with veterans who know each other and have some interaction with each other. That is the point.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is not what you were responding to. You said that there was an equal number of veterans that were afraid to take criticism and it goes both ways.

Actually I didn't say that. I just said there are a lot of veterans who can't take criticism. I said nothing about it being equal in numbers.

Either way, I still fail to see how that is off-topic.

And, even if you do feel it's off-topic, welcome to the world of internet message boards.

You did not just say it was a conversation where someone said they were right, you said a rookie told the veteran he was wrong and the veteran just said what you wanted them to. Usually those disagreements are with veterans who know each other and have some interaction with each other. That is the point.

That's a lot of pronouns. Regardless, I still don't get your point.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Um, actually it was the point of the whole thread. The OP asked if anyone has ever experienced veteran officials who think "it's all about me." I have, and I related such an experience.




You've never been involved or overheard a conversation where an official said "I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out?"

I'm with you here. Unfortunately, JRut likes to hear himself talk (Or type) and will engage anyone in a conversation simply to draw it out for as long as possible, so by the end both sides have forgotten what they're arguing about. He's a legend in his own mind, just ask him. (Remember, he will only trust maybe four officials out of 6,000 for advice)

Yes, there are a lot of veteran officials who think it is all about them. I had a situation last year where I (As a fourth-year official) was working with a veteran (15+ years) and he blew about three rules interps in a row in the same game. He even refused to budge when I told him he was wrong and one of the coaches called him out on it. His opinion was the only thing that mattered though (Wouldn't even get together with me to discuss it).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

(Remember, he will only trust maybe four officials out of 6,000 for advice)

Spoken like a true rookie. If you knew any better you would know that you should only pay attention to one or two mentors and just nod your head with the rest.

Originally Posted by zm1283

Yes, there are a lot of veteran officials who think it is all about them. I had a situation last year where I (As a fourth-year official)

Tell me everything I needed to know. Thanks for making that clear to me.

Peace