Its All About Me?

[Raymond]

I have found that a lot of newer officials are not truly interested in any type of criticism, constructive or otherwise, so I mind my business until someone shows me some sort of interest in learning.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have found that a lot of newer officials are not truly interested in any type of criticism, constructive or otherwise, so I mind my business until someone shows me some sort of interest in learning.

Exactly. Or they hear one thing and stop caring what someone else tells them.

This is a business and at the end of the day you have to make yourself available to get information. This is a fraternity that many younger officials do not completely understand as well. Many of us say something and we go and run to others with what we say. I can see some veterans being "guarded" to say much to a younger official. Not to be critical of "Rookie" but it is possible that he is misreading the behavior of veterans. Their behavior does not necessarily have to do with someone brand new taking their job. Actually a new person is not going to ever take my games in the first place.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by badnewsref

i have found that a lot of newer officials are not truly interested in any type of criticism, constructive or otherwise, so i mind my business until someone shows me some sort of interest in learning.

bingo!

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have found that a lot of newer officials are not truly interested in any type of criticism, constructive or otherwise, so I mind my business until someone shows me some sort of interest in learning.

Funny, I've found the same to be true about a lot of veteran officials.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Funny, I've found the same to be true about a lot of veteran officials.

I never consider giving advice to veteran officials so I wouldn't know how receptive they are.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Funny, I've found the same to be true about a lot of veteran officials.

There will always be officials in every association of every level of experience that want and crave advice/criticism/feedback. And there will always be officials in every association of every level of experience that don't.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Funny, I've found the same to be true about a lot of veteran officials.

I would never even consider giving any advice or instruction to a veteran official unless they were at a camp or setting where they are asking for advice. Like if they attend a camp where I am a clinician or running the game. Otherwise I respect their experience and let them work their game. If they want my advice they will have to ask, much like the rookies or lesser experienced officials.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would never even consider giving any advice or instruction to a veteran official unless they were at a camp or setting where they are asking for advice. Like if they attend a camp where I am a clinician or running the game. Otherwise I respect their experience and let them work their game. If they want my advice they will have to ask, much like the rookies or lesser experienced officials.

Peace

It's not even about giving advice or instruction when it's not asked for. It's about some veteran officials feeling like they are above criticism.

For example, last year I was working a JV game with the varsity refs watching. We had a player who slapped the backboard while (in our judgment) attempting to block a shot. The ball was in the cylinder and fell out. No call. After the game, both officials were all over us about why we didn't call basket interference. When I told them it's because that's not the rule, they both backtracked and said we should have at least called the technical. "What if the slap of the backboard wasn't intentional?" I asked. Doesn't matter, they said. When I, again, informed them that's not what the rule says, they both gave me a lecture about reffing in "the real world."

I've had several experiences like that with veteran officials who, because they are veterans, don't want to hear anything in terms of rules correction from someone who has fewer years of experience than they do.

So, like I said, I don't think it's a one-way street in terms of being accepting of criticism.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by fiasco

...
So, like I said, I don't think it's a one-way street in terms of being accepting of criticism.

Maybe not, but this thread is from a newer official pondering why it seems veteran officials don't do more to help mentor younger officials.

[JRutledge]

This is what was said back in post #5 in this thread.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have found that a lot of newer officials are not truly interested in any type of criticism, constructive or otherwise, so I mind my business until someone shows me some sort of interest in learning.

You quoted him and then said this.

Originally Posted by fiasco

Funny, I've found the same to be true about a lot of veteran officials.

What you talked about what not about constructive criticism. You talked about a disagreement someone might have about a rule, mechanic or interpretation.

My question to you is what learning is a veteran going to need to hear from a rookie? So a guy that is working a JV game and has a full schedule of JV games, you honestly think a veteran or person that has much more experience and a varsity or college schedule is going to listen to those opinions with a straight face?

Really that I am getting at. Then you told a story about a disagreement over a rule. I do not think these are the same thing. And it certainly not the same thing as a veteran not wanting to help a rookie as suggested in the OP.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

T

My question to you is what learning is a veteran going to need to hear from a rookie? So a guy that is working a JV game and has a full schedule of JV games, you honestly think a veteran or person that has much more experience and a varsity or college schedule is going to listen to those opinions with a straight face?



Really that I am getting at. Then you told a story about a disagreement over a rule. I do not think these are the same thing. And it certainly not the same thing as a veteran not wanting to help a rookie as suggested in the OP.

Peace

I love how you boil everything down to your own personal interpretation of what a conversation is or isn't about.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

It's not even about giving advice or instruction when it's not asked for. It's about some veteran officials feeling like they are above criticism.

For example, last year I was working a JV game with the varsity refs watching. We had a player who slapped the backboard while (in our judgment) attempting to block a shot. The ball was in the cylinder and fell out. No call. After the game, both officials were all over us about why we didn't call basket interference. When I told them it's because that's not the rule, they both backtracked and said we should have at least called the technical. "What if the slap of the backboard wasn't intentional?" I asked. Doesn't matter, they said. When I, again, informed them that's not what the rule says, they both gave me a lecture about reffing in "the real world."

What does that have to do with not taking criticism? That sounds like a disagreement of what the rule is or is not. I do not listen to anyone even when they are more veteran than me. I always consider the source.

Originally Posted by fiasco

I've had several experiences like that with veteran officials who, because they are veterans, don't want to hear anything in terms of rules correction from someone who has fewer years of experience than they do.

I teach a basketball class with very inexperienced officials in many cases. I get them trying to tell me what they interpret the rules are based on their very limited experience. What does that have to do criticism?

Originally Posted by fiasco

So, like I said, I don't think it's a one-way street in terms of being accepting of criticism.

Well often it is the younger and inexperienced officials that do not know what they are talking about or doing. All you have to do is read this board to figure that out sometimes. This is why most veterans say nothing if asked or if they know the person personally when we encounter officials we see in regular games. I almost only comment to younger officials when I know them or when I have been a clinician at their camp. And even then I have them ask when they want my evaluation. What you are describing is not what we are talking about. Because I will not accept much from someone I do not respect or feel has some knowledge that I can learn from. That is often not a 2 year officials.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What does that have to do with not taking criticism? That sounds like a disagreement of what the rule is or is not. I do not listen to anyone even when they are more veteran than me. I always consider the source.

It has everything to do with not taking criticism. I pointed out that their rules knowledge was lacking in this area (criticism), even showing them in the book and they blew me off repeatedly. It wasn't a "oh, I disagree, I think the rule is X." It was "You're the new guy, shut up because you don't know what you're talking about."

A good official who can take criticism would have said, "Hey, you know you're right. I didn't realize that, thanks for pointing it out," just as a good rookie would do when corrected by a veteran.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

It has everything to do with not taking criticism. I pointed out that their rules knowledge was lacking in this area (criticism), even showing them in the book and they blew me off repeatedly. It wasn't a "oh, I disagree, I think the rule is X." It was "You're the new guy, shut up because you don't know what you're talking about."

You seem to be on some personal stuff. That was not the point of previous comments.

Originally Posted by fiasco

A good official who can take criticism would have said, "Hey, you know you're right. I didn't realize that, thanks for pointing it out," just as a good rookie would do when corrected by a veteran.

Funny, I do not think I have ever seen that conversation between officials. OK, if that is what you think.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have found that a lot of newer officials are not truly interested in any type of criticism, constructive or otherwise, so I mind my business until someone shows me some sort of interest in learning.

Agreed. Worked a scrimmage last Saturday with several less experienced officials. Observed them work a 15 min. running clock quarter. I saw:

The L call the T's line.
The L going to retrieve a blocked shot while the defender was taunting the shooter.
The C close on the same play but didn't have enough sense to see what was going on with the defender.
The T stand inside the thrower and administer the throw-in.
The L stand under the basket to the point that the C and T didn't know who was suppose to be the new L in transistion.

The icing on the cake was there was an excuse for everything that I tried to point out.