What to do...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't see what professionalism has to do with this argument? Professionalism would be if you didn't think you could adjudicate your duties and responsibilities with integrity and you remove yourself from the contest. I think your statement would read better as

"Professionalism" is part of "ethical" conduct. In the science/engineering/medical/dental and legal professions, to act in an unprofessional manner is to act in an unethical manner. We like to say that sports officiating is an advocation, but it is really a profession masquerdating as a profession.

MTD, Sr.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

"Professionalism" is part of "ethical" conduct. In the science/engineering/medical/dental and legal professions, to act in an unprofessional manner is to act in an unethical manner. We like to say that sports officiating is an advocation, but it is really a profession masquerdating as a profession.

MTD, Sr.

MTD, I misspoke. Everyone is throwing around professionalism but it seems like they aren't applying any standards to it. I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. Being a "professional" official means carrying out your duties with ethics and integrity. Allowing personal conflicts to interfere with your job is unprofessional IMO. There are some few people, and I like to think I am one, who can be rational and reasonable and NOT allow personal conflicts to interfere with their duties.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by deecee

MTD, I misspoke. Everyone is throwing around professionalism but it seems like they aren't applying any standards to it. I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. Being a "professional" official means carrying out your duties with ethics and integrity. Allowing personal conflicts to interfere with your job is unprofessional IMO. There are some few people, and I like to think I am one, who can be rational and reasonable and NOT allow personal conflicts to interfere with their duties.

Sometimes even allowing the appearance of possible conflict is considered unprofessional.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Sometimes even allowing the appearance of possible conflict is considered unprofessional.

That works well for people in larger areas, it does not work for people in smaller areas where I originally came from, which is why really this is up to the assignor and what policy they want to have about who works a game and when. Remember the possibility of conflict is usually solely based on the people in those communities, not the officiating community. And why they assume someone lives in a community must be for a team in that community. This is also another reason you see this as an issue at the lower levels and rarely see this at the college or pro level at all. There are pro officials that grew up loving a home town team and they work that home town team which I would think would be more of a conflict, but they still work those games.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Sometimes even allowing the appearance of possible conflict is considered unprofessional.

Officials recognize that anything which may lead to a conflict of interest either real or
apparent must be avoided. Gifts, favors, special treatment, privileges, employment or personal
relationship with a school or team which can compromise the perceived impartiality of officiating must be
avoided.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by deecee

MTD, I misspoke. Everyone is throwing around professionalism but it seems like they aren't applying any standards to it. I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. Being a "professional" official means carrying out your duties with ethics and integrity. Allowing personal conflicts to interfere with your job is unprofessional IMO. There are some few people, and I like to think I am one, who can be rational and reasonable and NOT allow personal conflicts to interfere with their duties.

I think you've misunderstood the entire point. I don't think very many officials think they could not be professional and work a game for a school to which they have a reason to have allegiance to - I think most believe they could be unbiased and could, in all likelihood, do exactly that.

The issue is PERCEPTION. Someone there at the game is likely to know who you are, and that you have the possible allegiance. You could work the perfect game, missing no calls - but still have several close "judgments" to make ... and if ANY of those went toward the school you have the perceived bias toward (even if every call is dead right), the PERCEPTION will be that you (and the assigning organization) cheated their team.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think you've misunderstood the entire point. I don't think very many officials think they could not be professional and work a game for a school to which they have a reason to have allegiance to - I think most believe they could be unbiased and could, in all likelihood, do exactly that.

The issue is PERCEPTION. Someone there at the game is likely to know who you are, and that you have the possible allegiance. You could work the perfect game, missing no calls - but still have several close "judgments" to make ... and if ANY of those went toward the school you have the perceived bias toward (even if every call is dead right), the PERCEPTION will be that you (and the assigning organization) cheated their team.

My question to you is when is that not the case anyway? There are people that think we are bias because we share a race with a certain team, they think we live in a certain area or from a certain area or if I work a certain conference or had a team previously. That bar changes with the wind.

I agree that if you can avoid working at a place where you have some actual ties to with a family member that is not the best place to work a varsity game. But if it is lower level games and you were available more power to those. We are never going to make everyone happen and even if we miss a call people draw conclusions that are not there whether a family member is associated with that school or not.

I had two playoff football games one year with the two local HS in my area in back to back weeks. The home school tried to accuse us of being bias or being fair until I told him, "I live right down the street." He stopped complaining and they won the game, but every call seemed to go against them. It does not matter what we do, they will find some slight because they are not looking through objective eyes.

Peace

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My question to you is when is that not the case anyway? There are people that think we are bias because we share a race with a certain team, they think we live in a certain area or from a certain area or if I work a certain conference or had a team previously. That bar changes with the wind.

Rut - While I agree with you that they're going to question our judgment regardless why give them yet another reason to question that judgment? What fans/coaches/players think of your judgment is not in our control. Not giving them further, and in this case actual, ammo to question our judgment is in our control. Why even introduce it as a possibility when it's easily avoided?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Rut - While I agree with you that they're going to question our judgment regardless why give them yet another reason to question that judgment? What fans/coaches/players think of your judgment is not in our control. Not giving them further, and in this case actual, ammo to question our judgment is in our control. Why even introduce it as a possibility when it's easily avoided?

I guess Rufus I should never work at a all-Black school against an non-Black school as I would give them another reason to say I was bias right? I say that accusation is made often where I live and where I live means nothing as all the folks who want to claim something, claim the racial mix of the crew had something to do with our calls. Or that you are not from the inner city. Or that you are not from the suburbs. Or you went to a private school and played in that conference with a team you might not have ever liked. Fans are irrational as well as coaches. I am not saying we should willingly do this all the time and should avoid these situations as much as possible. I would not work a game where a family member attends or works at any varsity level. But if it was a freshman game, I just might under the right circumstances.

My football crew chief will not work at a school where the head coach and he played D1 college football together. They are good friends and every time the coach sees my crew chief, he gives him a big hug because they know each other well. This happened once in a playoff game so he has decided to mark off that school anytime they are in the playoffs. That is why I say this is really a personal decision and based on the teams in your area and the dynamics. This cannot be applied across the board as where I started officiating there were not many schools to avoid. But where I live now, I might not see the same team 5 years apart under the right circumstances.

Peace

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess Rufus I should never work at a all-Black school against an non-Black school as I would give them another reason to say I was bias right? I say that accusation is made often where I live and where I live means nothing as all the folks who want to claim something, claim the racial mix of the crew had something to do with our calls. Or that you are not from the inner city. Or that you are not from the suburbs. Or you went to a private school and played in that conference with a team you might not have ever liked. Fans are irrational as well as coaches. I am not saying we should willingly do this all the time and should avoid these situations as much as possible. I would not work a game where a family member attends or works at any varsity level. But if it was a freshman game, I just might under the right circumstances.

I hear what you're saying, but it's a bit of a straw-man argument. The OP asked about relatives at the schools regardless of the level called. I would avoid calling for those schools is all I'm saying.

As to your other points I agree you can get nuts with the exclusions and why I limit school scratches to those that involve family members.

[kwatson]

I actually have worked games that my daughter played in (middle school). The only issue that came up with this was the family getting upset cause I called her for travelling and a couple fouls. This of course was in the middle of nowhere in Montana where you didnt have to be a certified official for middle school.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think you've misunderstood the entire point. I don't think very many officials think they could not be professional and work a game for a school to which they have a reason to have allegiance to - I think most believe they could be unbiased and could, in all likelihood, do exactly that.

The issue is PERCEPTION. Someone there at the game is likely to know who you are, and that you have the possible allegiance. You could work the perfect game, missing no calls - but still have several close "judgments" to make ... and if ANY of those went toward the school you have the perceived bias toward (even if every call is dead right), the PERCEPTION will be that you (and the assigning organization) cheated their team.

I don't give a rats a$$ about perception. People will perceive whatever the hell they want to. Facts and reality are all that I care about. If we don't care about what fans, coaches, the world think about our calls during a game. Why the heck do we all of a sudden start caring after the fact.

Just do your job. People will perceive and think whatever they want to. It's out of your control.

[APG]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't give a rats a$$ about perception. People will perceive whatever the hell they want to. Facts and reality are all that I care about. If we don't care about what fans, coaches, the world think about our calls during a game. Why the heck do we all of a sudden start caring after the fact.

Just do your job. People will perceive and think whatever they want to. It's out of your control.

We've all heard that perception is reality. It's the reason we try not to appear overly buddy buddy with one coach over the other...cause the perception can come across as if you're favoring that coach if a tight call goes in his favor even if that had nothing to do with it. Perception does matter in this work of ours.

I think this whole issue comes down to what one is personally comfortable working and especially your assignor is comfortable with it.