Speaking of women's hoops. . .

ChuckElias · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 10:50am

Since we've been enjoying the women's NCAA games over the last few days, here's a story about the pros. I thought it might be of interest.

http://espn.go.com/wnba/news/2003/0408/1535722.html

JRutledge · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 11:15am

I think there might not be a WNBA if they keep asking for too much. Whether they like it or not, they need to get their attendence up (which may never happen to total satisfaction) or they will have nothing to demand. They will have to play overseas again.

Peace

Adam · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 11:26am

Rut,
I couldn't agree with you more. "Good will" only translates into so much of a financial commitment from the NBA. That's the problem with operating at, essentially, the charity of others, rather than establishing an operation that is profitable in its own right.

Adam

Dan_ref · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 12:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Rut,
I couldn't agree with you more. "Good will" only translates into so much of a financial commitment from the NBA. That's the problem with operating at, essentially, the charity of others, rather than establishing an operation that is profitable in its own right.

Adam

I'm not sure I agree with your characterization. This ain't "goodwill" or "charity", it's a genuine attempt by the NBA to expand their market. At some point they need to see a return on their investment or they'll pull the plug. But once they pull the plug they will have abandoned 50% of the population they can expand into, in effect. It seems to me they're not ready to pull the plug yet but they certainly seem ready to reduce the amount of cash they're pumping in to keep the operation going. Also looks like they're starting to play hardball with the players salaries.

JRutledge · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

But once they pull the plug they will have abandoned 50% of the population they can expand into, in effect.

Kind of hard to abandon a population that does not show up in the first place.

If women supported their own sports, this would never be an issue. But the fact is that many men watch all kind of sports 22 hours in a day in their underwear and a beer and sleep the other two hours. Women just do not like, nor support Women's sports. Women in this country pay more attention to Oprah, then they do sports. And she does not make it a habit to talk about sports on a daily, weekly or monthly basis.

Peace

Dan_ref · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 12:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

But once they pull the plug they will have abandoned 50% of the population they can expand into, in effect.

Kind of hard to abandon a population that does not show up in the first place.

Peace

Fact remains that there are only certain places the NBA can go to increase revenue, the men who don't support it today will most likely never support it. Revenue from US women & an international audience are 2 obvious areas to invest in. Whether the WNBA investment is a success or not depends on exactly what David Stern expected to get out of it, but I would expect that attracting *young girls* is a large part of the measurement. Probably much more important than attracting "the Oprah crowd". And the fact remains, once the NBA folds the WNBA they have effectively written off the female population as a source of additional revenue.

gsf23 · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 01:58pm

But the problem is that women aren't supporting the WNBA. They tried putting WNBA games on lifetime, a cable network targeted to females and the ratings for the games were horrible. The attendence at the games are even worse. Women just don't support women's sports like men support men's sports.

Dan_ref · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 02:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
But the problem is that women aren't supporting the WNBA. They tried putting WNBA games on lifetime, a cable network targeted to females and the ratings for the games were horrible. The attendence at the games are even worse. Women just don't support women's sports like men support men's sports.

And how do we know this? Because the NBA invested $$$ into it. And I'll say it again, I believe the NBA is after little girls, not their mommies. Supporting sports is largely a cultural thing, IMO. Most women today don't support sports because they were not brought up to do so.

CYO Butch · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 02:11pm

The Washington Mystics manage to put on a great show for the whole family. I've only been able to get to one game since I live way out in to boon docks away from town, but I'd much rather go to a Mystics game than any NBA game. It is a fun time, the prices are more reasonable than the NBA, and the TEAM basketball is better. I believe the Mystics are one of the few WNBA teams making money. My biggest observation (from a single sample) about the crowd was that there weren't dads with sons in the stands. That may be asking too much.

gsf23 · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 02:17pm

But for how long does the NBA continue to pour millions of dollars into a WNBA that keeps losing money? 5 years??? 10 years??? 20 years???

To get the kids you have to get to the parents also. It's going to be hard for little Susie to become a fan of the WNBA when mom and dad don't ever take her to a game or never watch a game at home.

Dan_ref · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 02:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
But for how long does the NBA continue to pour millions of dollars into a WNBA that keeps losing money? 5 years??? 10 years??? 20 years???

Hey, it ain't your money, don't take it personally!

Bottom line is this: there's a huge investment being made by the NBA which they obviously expect will pay off. And just as obviously they have a timetable & roadmap that will help them decide how their investment is going. There are probably less than a dozen people on the planet who know what their strategy is, how long they are willing to wait & if they are on track. Bargaining with the player's union is something that's gonna happen regarldess, maybe the player's demands will be the straw that kills the league but I doubt it. We'll see!

Hawks Coach · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 03:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
But for how long does the NBA continue to pour millions of dollars into a WNBA that keeps losing money? 5 years??? 10 years??? 20 years???

To get the kids you have to get to the parents also. It's going to be hard for little Susie to become a fan of the WNBA when mom and dad don't ever take her to a game or never watch a game at home.

It's a reasonable question. And it depends on whether or not you buy that it makes long-term sense. I think one place they went wrong that the ABL had it right is the places the WNBA located teams. ABL picked towns with good womens programs and solid womens attendance figures. NBA is going to NBA markets, which are not necessarily the right women's markets, at least not until the league is more established.

Go to Connecticut and Tennessee and see if you can't get more fans out. They pack them in for women's games there, and the fans know all the players. They follow the women's game, so they would be more interested than the markets that have no viable college programs.

JRutledge · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 04:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Hey, it ain't your money, don't take it personally!

That is a very good point. Not a single person has invested money in this league (that I am aware of) is here. The people that are NBA owners, did not get there by making bad investments. If the think they have made a bad investment or that the investment is not going to work, they can and will pull the plug. And all they have to go on is what is happening at those games right now. Hardly anyone attends the games and hardly anyone watches the games. For God sake, the games are played in the summer when there is 100 other things to do. The media never talks about it. I am sure the NCAA Finals got a lot of people watching, but that is basically one game during one weekend, what was happening the rest of the year. I know just at the HS level when they would have a double header with a Boy's varsity game, then follow it by Girl's varsity game, after the Boy's game, everyone would leave practically. It just shows the interest level of the two sports right there.

Peace

Hawks Coach · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 04:09pm

jrut
Good points. And you have stated before that in your area, the girls ball is way sub-standard. That matters too. In our area, the good irls HS teams can outdraw the boys if the boys are sub par. HS playoffs were playing to packed gyms, and regular season games with two quality opponents come close to selling out. And of course, my area is the same market that supports the Mystics. Just a better female sports fan base here than in other locales. If that doesn't change, WNBA will not have a viable national market, which is ultimately essential for a pro sports league to survive.

One bottom line in sports is quality. If you can put a good game out there, fans will follow. If you stink the place up, the fans stop paying (for men and women). The women's game has only recently stepped up it's quality, and continues to improve. If the women can continue to improve the caliber of play at the highest level, they may see some improvement in attendance.

DrakeM · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 09, 2003, 04:28pm

I think the NBA is willing to subsidize (for the moment)
because the WNBA has abandoned the original operating model, and is now able to expand into NON-NBA markets.
They knew going into the change, that it would be a rough transition. If THIS model doesn't work, then you may see the NBA call it a day.