Faking Being Fouled

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Sorry, but I do not see a player that takes himself out of a play on the perimeter as putting his opponent at a clear disadvantage.

Nor do I. However, we're dealing in the realm of unsportsmanlike conduct here.

Does a coach that openly opines how much you "suck" put his opposition at a disadvantage? Does a player who flips off his opposing bench -- or anyone, for that matter -- put his opponent at a disadvantage? Although there's no clear disadvantage in either case, these are instances we cannot let go, so we punish accordingly.

Does flopping create a disadvantage? No, but that's not the point. Flopping is cheating and unsportsmanlike, plain and simple. If you let it go without even a warning, the cheating continues. The only people who could possibly give you grief over calling the flops are those that don't believe cheating is a big deal.

[NCHSAA]

This is a great conversation. I am really enjoying it. But just let whoever live or die with their philosophies pertaining to this play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Nor do I. However, we're dealing in the realm of unsportsmanlike conduct here.

And your point is what?

Originally Posted by bainsey

Does a coach that openly opines how much you "suck" put his opposition at a disadvantage? Does a player who flips off his opposing bench -- or anyone, for that matter -- put his opponent at a disadvantage? Although there's no clear disadvantage in either case, these are instances we cannot let go, so we punish accordingly.

Who said anything about flipping someone off or telling someone they suck? Those are more obvious situations that would be addressed just like flopping with no contact would be.

Originally Posted by bainsey

Does flopping create a disadvantage? No, but that's not the point. Flopping is cheating and unsportsmanlike, plain and simple. If you let it go without even a warning, the cheating continues.

It could cause an advantage if done in the right situation, but this situation specifically the guy took himself out of the play and gave an open look. Not to say that the actual call was not a good one, but I hope it took place with some previous behavior or that is the standard for this call in that league, area.

Originally Posted by bainsey

The only people who could possibly give you grief over calling the flops are those that don't believe cheating is a big deal.

OK, keep telling yourself that. I guess the people that claim they never fouled anyone on a call also believe in cheating too? Oh, do you T them when they question your call? After all that is clearly against the rules.

Peace

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Oh, do you T them when they question your call? After all that is clearly against the rules.

Wrong, sir. Disrespectfully addressing, gesturing, and attempting to influence the official are against the rules. Questioning is legal, provided it's done civilly. That happens all the time.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

[Flopping] could cause an advantage if done in the right situation, but this situation specifically the guy took himself out of the play and gave an open look.

We agree about this situation. Still, I'm struggling to think of an example where an actual, physical advantage is gained by flopping. Again, it's all about the unsportsmanlike act, which is what needs to be penalized.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Wrong, sir. Disrespectfully addressing, gesturing, and attempting to influence the official are against the rules. Questioning is legal, provided it's done civilly. That happens all the time.

Don't change the subject: he asked whether you T a coach for questioning your call. Your T here is for the disrespect, not the question.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Don't change the subject: he asked whether you T a coach for questioning your call.

LOL I changed nothing. The man said nothing about disrespect, only questioning. Of course, the answer is no.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Wrong, sir. Disrespectfully addressing, gesturing, and attempting to influence the official are against the rules. Questioning is legal, provided it's done civilly. That happens all the time.

You need to go back and read what I asked you again. I asked specifically when bench personnel did specific things and all of them do not require "disrespect" as I pointed out in Rules 10-4-1b or e. Neither say anything about disrespect, they simply say it is illegal to attempt to influence an official (happens every game) and to give a gesture like a travel signal or putting their arms up. My point is these are clearly against the rules no matter how you judge it, but as officials do we penalize the most egregious acts and often warn before we even penalize. Even disrespect comes in many forms and I doubt you are giving a T every time someone does many number of things that others would consider disrespect either.

Originally Posted by bainsey

We agree about this situation. Still, I'm struggling to think of an example where an actual, physical advantage is gained by flopping. Again, it's all about the unsportsmanlike act, which is what needs to be penalized.

Very easy if you think about a situation. You have A1 going hard to the basket and B1 flops with little or no contact at all to draw a charge, while B1 is on the floor, A1 falls or trips on top of him and cannot participate in the play for the possible rebound or if the basket is made. Now not only is B1 out of the play, so is A1.

Originally Posted by bainsey

LOL I changed nothing. The man said nothing about disrespect, only questioning. Of course, the answer is no.

I said something about giving gestures and doing and saying things that are trying to influence an official's decisions. You know when a coach says, "Can we get a call on the other end?" Is that not trying to influence an official's decisions?" Or better yet when the coach says to you, "It is 8-1." Is that OK directly under the rules? My point is they are not, but we use other means to stop that behavior and penalize if it continues. I feel the same way about this rule we are talking here. And I doubt seriously you are giving a T for these many other things that are violations of the rules that you claim must be followed no matter what.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have A1 going hard to the basket and B1 flops with little or no contact at all to draw a charge, while B1 is on the floor, A1 falls or trips on top of him and cannot participate in the play for the possible rebound or if the basket is made.

Or worse, A1 is injured. I'm sure that the intent of this rule involves the increased chance of injuries, as well as the unsporting nature of the act.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have A1 going hard to the basket and B1 flops with little or no contact at all to draw a charge, while B1 is on the floor, A1 falls or trips on top of him and cannot participate in the play for the possible rebound or if the basket is made.

There it is. Solid point.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You know when a coach says, "Can we get a call on the other end?" Is that not trying to influence an official's decisions? [sic] Or better yet when the coach says to you, "It is 8-1." Is that OK directly under the rules?

In my opinion, the former would come closer to 10-4-1b than the latter, but either is a stretch. The first is a question; the second is a declarative sentence. For my money, when you get into imperative sentences (i.e. "Call it both ways!"), that's when you're crossing the line.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I feel the same way about this rule we are talking here.

That's where we part ways. I don't.

Often times, a coach's question is simply there to acquire information. (If I smell influence, I'll deal with it.) However, there's never a positive intent to flopping. I have no problem with answering civilly asked questions from a head coach or player, even under tense circumstances, but I have a big problem with cheating. It's that simple.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Wrong, sir. Disrespectfully addressing, gesturing, and attempting to influence the official are against the rules. Questioning is legal, provided it's done civilly. That happens all the time.


We agree about this situation. Still, I'm struggling to think of an example where an actual, physical advantage is gained by flopping. Again, it's all about the unsportsmanlike act, which is what needs to be penalized.

Do you call a T every time a coach attempts to influence your call? 10-4-1b

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Do you call a T every time a coach attempts to influence your call? 10-4-1b

Asked and answered, counsel. See "civilly questioning" earlier in this thread.