Game may never end

jwild1665 · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 16, 2003, 09:25pm

With the score tied in the 6A Florida Boys Final, team A player is fouled in the act of shooting with 1 second remaining. He makes the first throw and a time-out is called. When play resumes, as soon as the ball is bounced to the shooter, Team B players enter the lane. The shooter intentionally misses the shot by clanging it off the front of the rim. Obviously, Team A wants a miss to insure that time expires before Team B can take any kind of shot. Team B is going to violate until Team A scores so that they can set up a play from out of bounds. This happens four straight times until the shooter accidently scores. Team B's shot from beyond half court after the throw-in falls short.
I would think that the officials should have warned Team B to stop the intentional violations and then assessed a technical foul if the violations continued. But for the accidentally made free throw, they could still be there.

canuckrefguy · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 16, 2003, 09:50pm

Pretty ingenious on the part of Team B, if you ask me...

whistleone · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 03:49pm

After the third violation I think I may have "accidently" missed a lane violation.

"What's that coach?"

"A lane violation..."

"Didn't see it."

Game over!

vabella01 · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 04:09pm

Yep, my first post. I love the game, coach my son's 7th grade team, and play three times a week, and I learn more about the game here than anywhere else I've seen on the Web. Thanks, all! (In fact, I was able to share the "no over the back rule" with a few observers while watching another game yesterday. Heh.)

On the topic, is there any problem with conveniently ignoring the lane violation, as whistleone suggests? canuckrefguy seems to imply that there really isn't any rule against the lane violations. What's the principle here?

BBall_Junkie · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 04:19pm

Although I applaud the ingenuity of the coach, I believe I would make a comment to the players that the next lane violation (once I become aware that they are being done intentionally) will result in a "T". I believe this would fall into the category of making a travesty of the game and is unsporting.

ChuckElias · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 05:27pm

vabella, welcome to the board. Glad to have you here. It's always nice to have coaches here to give a different perspective. And if we can help you understand the rules better, then that's a bonus. (Thanks for popping somebody's "over the back" bubble!)

To answer your question, I do think that the repeated violation should not be intentionally missed. Either it's legal, and you have to let the kid continue doing it, or it becomes a travesty (intentionally violating a rule repeatedly) and you have to penalize it. Personally, I agree that I would tell the kid (or the coach, if possible) that it won't be tolerated. If he continues, then penalize with a T.

Chuck

mplagrow · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 07:05pm

We had this conversation a month or so ago. Same situation, except A didn't try to miss the free throws. Is it a travesty to intentionally violate the rules, or just good strategy? On the other hand, is intentionally missing a shot any different? I agree that you warn player B to stop intentionally violating. But you can't tell a player to stop intentionally missing a free throw!

Ultimately, I believe B is at the disadvantage, but they should be. They obviously had to foul that late in the game to be in that position. Warn B, play on, T him if he does it again.

Camron Rust · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 08:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mplagrow
We had this conversation a month or so ago. Same situation, except A didn't try to miss the free throws. Is it a travesty to intentionally violate the rules, or just good strategy? On the other hand, is intentionally missing a shot any different? I agree that you warn player B to stop intentionally violating. But you can't tell a player to stop intentionally missing a free throw!

I think they are fundamentally different. One is the violating of a rule in an attempt to gain an advantage. Missing a FT is not a violation of a rule.

Quote:

Ultimately, I believe B is at the disadvantage, but they should be. They obviously had to foul that late in the game to be in that position. Warn B, play on, T him if he does it again.

I agree. B is behind and shouldn't be allowed to break the rules for a chance to win.

To turn the tables, if A had the arrow, A1 could shoot an airball or step across the line and A would have the ball OOB.

I even might alert B1, out loud so A1 could hear it, that if the shooter airballs or violates after B1 steps in, A would get the ball OOB on the arrow...and that would really make it hard for B to win.

canuckrefguy · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 12:18am

Quote:

Originally posted by whistleone
"What's that coach?"

"A lane violation..."

"Didn't see it."

Game over!

Brilliant!

I love it!

Nevadaref · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 06:42am

I agree with CR.
JWild, please tell us, if you know, which team had the possession arrow during this FT situation.

jwild1665 · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 03:34pm

Team A did have the possession arrow and could have missed the rim to create a alternate possession situation.
I believe this comes under the section for delay of the game, which is not limited to the specific situations mentioned (huddling at the free throw line, etc.) In addition, there is the catch-all provision that the R can make any decisions not specifically covered by the rules.
Other points: (1) You could not ignore the violation. The team B player behind the arc would step into the circle and stand next to the shooter as he was shooting. The other players would walk into the lane in front of the shooter. All this before the ball was released on the try. (2) This is similar to the warning for delay for violations by the defenders on out of bounds plays. Warn after the first violation and T after that. You are in better shape here concerning a delay because it is obvious that it is an intentional delay tactic. (3) As indicated by one of the replies, missing a shot is not a violation, but stepping into the lane is a violation. Therefore, missing the shot is allowed, Team B's behavior is not.

Camron Rust · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 04:24pm

Another option by A would be to make sure the ball hit one of the violating defenders on the way to the basket. It may take a granny shot to make sure of it but the rewared would be a T on the defender that it hit...touching the ball anywhere outside the cylinder on a FT is goaltending and the penalty includes a technical foul. A would get the point and the ball.

jbygden · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 04:27pm

Being from Europe and using strictly FIBA rules, I'd issue a warning to team B, and follow it up with a T if repeated.

Why? It's "a violation of the spirit of the game" at least according to the way we're taught in Europe.

/Jonas

PS. "canuckrefguy" - is that you Ace?

PublicBJ · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 20, 2003, 04:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Another option by A would be to make sure the ball hit one of the violating defenders on the way to the basket. It may take a granny shot to make sure of it but the rewared would be a T on the defender that it hit...touching the ball anywhere outside the cylinder on a FT is goaltending and the penalty includes a technical foul. A would get the point and the ball.

Now that's thinking. I like it.