Physical tests...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BBrules

Wishing I was doing 3 whistle because the physical demand is significantly less.

Not for me. I relish the physical, and mental, challenge of a two person varsity game, pretty much the only kind of games we work here in our little corner of the Land of Steady Habits. I know that the three person game is better for the kids, and better for the game, but I still love the challenge of a two person assignment, at any level.

[IowaMike]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Very often, the lower levels of play are more strenuous, physically, because of the lack of structure, lack of organized play-running offenses, and poorer spacing of players on the court. Many of the younger - sub-varsity - games are played by participants who are trying to impress someone with their abilities, and so they run more.

This is a great point. One of my varsity partners and I were discussing this last year and we both felt that it was much, much easier to officiate a three man varsity boys game than a two man soph boys game, particularly in the big school conferences. The play is more ragged, up and down, and unpredictable. We have to call a lot more fouls as well, and in general it is more of a challenge to our officiating skills both physically and mentally. You really don't have to be in great physical condition to officiate a three man varsity game; you can go very long periods of time without ever having to actually run. That's not the case in a two man game, particularly at the high school level.

I don't think physical testing is a bad idea necessarily; I've seen guys working varsity games in all the sports who literally cannot run anymore and really need to hang it up. But relegating the guys who don't measure up to the games that actually require more physical exertion seems like a poor solution to me. You also can't just drop those guys because lets face it, someone has to fill the games and you can't fill all of them with guys who look and move like Kobe Bryant.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by IowaMike

This is a great point. One of my varsity partners and I were discussing this last year and we both felt that it was much, much easier to officiate a three man varsity boys game than a two man soph boys game, particularly in the big school conferences. The play is more ragged, up and down, and unpredictable. We have to call a lot more fouls as well, and in general it is more of a challenge to our officiating skills both physically and mentally. You really don't have to be in great physical condition to officiate a three man varsity game; you can go very long periods of time without ever having to actually run. That's not the case in a two man game, particularly at the high school level.

I don't think physical testing is a bad idea necessarily; I've seen guys working varsity games in all the sports who literally cannot run anymore and really need to hang it up. But relegating the guys who don't measure up to the games that actually require more physical exertion seems like a poor solution to me. You also can't just drop those guys because lets face it, someone has to fill the games and you can't fill all of them with guys who look and move like Kobe Bryant.

This is a point often overlooked by guys doing the second game who complain about the length of the first game.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by IowaMike

This is a great point. One of my varsity partners and I were discussing this last year and we both felt that it was much, much easier to officiate a three man varsity boys game than a two man JV boys game, particularly in the big school conferences.

Agreed. I find it much more tiring (physically and mentally) and off-ball contact is something I really try to watch for - but it's difficult.

[amusedofficial]

Originally Posted by mikeref

Who decides what test will be given? who decides the criteria for passing? Where does the criteria come from? Is there any medical or scientific evaluation associated with the criteria for passing, or is it just an arbitrary decision that members of an association make?

Excellent points. I also note another comment that some of the guys who didn't do well on the physical test were long considered among the association's best officials. Now an arbitrary test has determined that reputations made on the court are no longer relevant? Because somebody invented a test? Where is the empirical evidence that 14 seconds in a shuttle run is significant enough to determine who does and who does not ref a basketball game?

Looks to me like an attempt to thin the ranks (no pun intended) and eliminate the competition by substituting arbitrary physical tests for valid game evaluation. If your partner is waddling to a meeting, he or she is waddling up and down the court, and it should be noted and acted on in evaluations. It is absurd to base officiating ability on a test imposed by a group of people who would naturally invent a test they could pass and declare it the minimum standard.

I've worked with gazelles who can memorize the rule book but who still know nothing about basketball

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

Excellent points. I also note another comment that some of the guys who didn't do well on the physical test were long considered among the association's best officials. Now an arbitrary test has determined that reputations made on the court are no longer relevant? Because somebody invented a test? Where is the empirical evidence that 14 seconds in a shuttle run is significant enough to determine who does and who does not ref a basketball game?

Looks to me like an attempt to thin the ranks (no pun intended) and eliminate the competition by substituting arbitrary physical tests for valid game evaluation. If your partner is waddling to a meeting, he or she is waddling up and down the court, and it should be noted and acted on in evaluations. It is absurd to base officiating ability on a test imposed by a group of people who would naturally invent a test they could pass and declare it the minimum standard.

I've worked with gazelles who can memorize the rule book but who still know nothing about basketball

Or, like often happens, those reputations are no longer valid. It can take years for a reputation to change...either when the official is no longer able to keep up but keeps getting the top assignments or when the official has improved substantially but doesn't get better assignments. My guess is those officials, while considered by many to be top officials, haven't been recently seen on the court by many who think they're top.

Now, perhaps the threshold of passing was unreasonable but there is some level of fitness that should be a minimum....at some point, an official IS just too unfit to properly cover the game no matter how good of a play caller they are.

[APG]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

Excellent points. I also note another comment that some of the guys who didn't do well on the physical test were long considered among the association's best officials. Now an arbitrary test has determined that reputations made on the court are no longer relevant? Because somebody invented a test? Where is the empirical evidence that 14 seconds in a shuttle run is significant enough to determine who does and who does not ref a basketball game?

Looks to me like an attempt to thin the ranks (no pun intended) and eliminate the competition by substituting arbitrary physical tests for valid game evaluation. If your partner is waddling to a meeting, he or she is waddling up and down the court, and it should be noted and acted on in evaluations. It is absurd to base officiating ability on a test imposed by a group of people who would naturally invent a test they could pass and declare it the minimum standard.

I've worked with gazelles who can memorize the rule book but who still know nothing about basketball

Most people already take at least a rules test to determine if they are eligible to officiate, and/or to decide what levels they are eligible to work. With the line of thinking in your post above, I'm assuming you have a problem with that also? Literally everything you have against a physical test could be applied to any test(s) you already have to take.

Whether we like it or not, there should be a minimum level of physical fitness required to work games...it's part of the job...just like we test officials for a minimum amount of rules/mechanics/floor/etc. knowledge.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Most people already take at least a rules test to determine if they are eligible to officiate, and/or to decide what levels they are eligible to work. With the line of thinking in your post above, I'm assuming you have a problem with that also? Literally everything you have against a physical test could be applied to any test(s) you already have to take.

Whether we like it or not, there should be a minimum level of physical fitness required to work games...it's part of the job...just like we test officials for a minimum amount of rules/mechanics/floor/etc. knowledge.

I do agree with that, but rules tests also do not prove the ability for someone to show knowledge either. Those are silly too. And if it determines what level a person can only work that year, those are even dumber tests. In my opinion which is why what you work should be decided by people that observe you work, not by some test that ultimately means nothing when you have to memorize a word or specific phrase out of the rulebook. I do agree that we should be able to show some level of fitness, but that can be determined by more than a physical test. I can see you run once down the court and determine if you can keep up. A time on a clock is not going to determine that IMO.

Peace

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do agree with that, but rules tests also do not prove the ability for someone to show knowledge either. Those are silly too. And if it determines what level a person can only work that year, those are even dumber tests. In my opinion which is why what you work should be decided by people that observe you work, not by some test that ultimately means nothing when you have to memorize a word or specific phrase out of the rulebook. I do agree that we should be able to show some level of fitness, but that can be determined by more than a physical test. I can see you run once down the court and determine if you can keep up. A time on a clock is not going to determine that IMO.

Peace

Great points. Sometimes, it is helpful to have an impartial observer (i.e. someone who is not a member of that association) make that determination. If a guy is constantly getting beat (meaning on a break, that the official cannot get into a good position to see the play, but not meaning he has to beat the players down court and be standing at the end line waiting for them to arrive) or hangs back at T, or just looks like he is going to keel over mid-way through the 2nd qtr., it can be difficult for those who have been close to that official for a number of years to broach the subject. Especially, if that individual does a lot FOR the association.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do agree with that, but rules tests also do not prove the ability for someone to show knowledge either. Those are silly too.

Oh?

Last year, I ended my season with a JV boys game. My veteran partner called a team control foul on A10 during transition. He then started to line up the kids for B11's free throws.

I didn't see the foul, but an alarm went off in my head. We were in transition, so how else could A10's foul be anything but team control? I went to my partner to check on that, and we corrected it. Team B ball at the division line.

What readied me for that moment? Rules tests, or more specifically, the preparation for such tests. I can't think of a better way to drill these things into our heads.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Oh?

Last year, I ended my season with a JV boys game. My veteran partner called a team control foul on A10 during transition. He then started to line up the kids for B11's free throws.

I didn't see the foul, but an alarm went off in my head. We were in transition, so how else could A10's foul be anything but team control? I went to my partner to check on that, and we corrected it. Team B ball at the division line.

What readied me for that moment? Rules tests, or more specifically, the preparation for such tests. I can't think of a better way to drill these things into our heads.

It depends on how the test is written and administered. Too many officials just show up at some meeting, copy down 100 Ts and Fs in order, and transcribe that information onto the answer sheet.

At least with a fitness test, you'd have to take it yourself.

Best, I think, would be to combine them. Something like: Sprint from one endline to the other (max time 7 secs or so). Answer a rules question within 10 secs. Repeat 5 times, then a 1 min break. Repeat the entire cycle 10 times.

Tests your physical fitness and your ability to be mentally sharp when physically tired.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Oh?

Last year, I ended my season with a JV boys game. My veteran partner called a team control foul on A10 during transition. He then started to line up the kids for B11's free throws.

I didn't see the foul, but an alarm went off in my head. We were in transition, so how else could A10's foul be anything but team control? I went to my partner to check on that, and we corrected it. Team B ball at the division line.

What readied me for that moment? Rules tests, or more specifically, the preparation for such tests. I can't think of a better way to drill these things into our heads.

If that is the only way you learned, then you either are not taking a NF test and your state/association/chapter gives their own or you are not having discussions or debates with officials during the season. The NF test almost never asked where a ball would be put or if someone would be ejected for certain behavior.

As we speak, our state who administers their own test will not be available until November 1 and will end taking the test on December 5. By November 1 the association that I am President will have already have had 4 meetings. As a state clinician I have been giving presentations in clinics or observed officials several hours since early June. I have also a basketball class in which I teach in the fall that will also have that starts in October and there will be 5 classes with that until November 1. And that does not include all the preparation that I have to personally make in order prepare for my class, the clinics or ask for interpretations to teach the class or run those meetings. And I will have worked 9 games before December 5 when the last date I could theoretically take the exam. And our test is an open book test with only 25 questions (50 total to review if they do the same as football did this year) with questions that not only ask what the rule applies but what we do with the ball or other circumstances of the application. And you are telling me that the only time you review rules is when the test is out? I am sure your system is different than ours on some level, but even if you have to take the exam on one day, I hope and pray you are reviewing the rules a lot more than when the test is going to be taken. I do not by any means consider myself to be a rules expert, but I am often asked many questions about rules in my role as an organizational president and a clinician with my state about how to apply rules. Most questions are not "What is an intentional foul?" Most questions are like we read on this forum where people want to know if they applied the rule correctly and did they give the ball to the right team or were they supposed to eject the coach or the player, not what the wording of an intentional foul is. Why, because they are almost never asked those kinds of questions on rules tests, but questioned if they understand the word for word definition of a rule rather than test all the other aspects of the application. And you will be amazed what people do not know how to apply when they make a call, especially those unusual rules or applications they hardly ever call.

Either you are not being honest with yourself when you actually review rules and situation (I do it mostly with other officials well off the court) or you are one of those that picks up the rulebook one time a year and it never sees the light of day after the test is over. And those are the officials that give 1 shot for an intentional foul when the ball goes in and puts the ball in at half court (more common than you may think).

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It depends on how the test is written and administered. Too many officials just show up at some meeting, copy down 100 Ts and Fs in order, and transcribe that information onto the answer sheet.

At least with a fitness test, you'd have to take it yourself.

Best, I think, would be to combine them. Something like: Sprint from one endline to the other (max time 7 secs or so). Answer a rules question within 10 secs. Repeat 5 times, then a 1 min break. Repeat the entire cycle 10 times.

Tests your physical fitness and your ability to be mentally sharp when physically tired.

Well even know here we do not have a fitness test officially, if you are not at a camp and can prove you can get up and down the court it will be obvious. And one of the typical topics of conversation that camp clinicians have are the physical ability of the officials that are being observed. And I can tell you that many that you and I work for in our area eliminate people based on the physical ability of those they observe. That is really the case when those that claim they can work "varsity" after a few years and in camp cannot keep up with better athletes than they are used to seeing in a running clock game. I will take that any day over a time trial.

Peace

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And you are telling me that the only time you review rules is when the test is out?

I'm not sure where you inferred that.

I crack a rule book quite frequently. I enjoy rules analysis and application, which is partially why I enjoy forums like these. As for our test, it's closed book, 50 questions for rules, and 25-30 questions on mechanics. We hold three rules clinics prior to the test. I also use RefSchool software, which isn't perfect, but is still a solid tool, just the same.

The example that Bob provided regarding copying down answers is hardly preparation, in my opinion. If that's the norm in some places, no wonder there are some so disillusioned.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I'm not sure where you inferred that.

I crack a rule book quite frequently. I enjoy rules analysis and application, which is partially why I enjoy forums like these. As for our test, it's closed book, 50 questions for rules, and 25-30 questions on mechanics. We hold three rules clinics prior to the test. I also use RefSchool software, which isn't perfect, but is still a solid tool, just the same.

You are telling me that the rules test is the only reason you pick up a rulebook? You do not have conversations with other officials during the season, off-season or at association meetings? Then what do you do after the test is over? Do you stop picking up the rulebooks the rest of the season or stop having discussions? I get into more discussions at the bar when the game is over than just about any time during the test taking process.

Originally Posted by bainsey

The example that Bob provided regarding copying down answers is hardly preparation, in my opinion. If that's the norm in some places, no wonder there are some so disillusioned.

What Bob described is what takes place in our area because our test is open book and that ideal is endorsed by our higher ups. But if you think there is not other rules discussion, debates or preparation, then you would be sadly mistaken. Football rules are much harder than any basketball rule and application and in that sport I have been involved in similar issues since early June dealing with rules that have more aspects to them and more detail. I was telling someone this weekend I have been talking football at least 2 or 3 times a week since June and want to get to a real game already. Because I am a clinician in basketball and attend camps in the spring, that process has been already for the basketball season since May (season ended in March). It is a 12 month cycle in basketball for sure and these are not even that hard to grasp as I have to deal with working HS and college football.

And as I said before the NF was the test of choice for years and we had to know the difference between what "must" or "shall" more than anything. Or know the inches of the circumference of a basketball or how long the net could be. Great questions of things we will either not measure or probably would not enforce to the point the game is stopped or the item is replace just based on if something is an inch off.

Better yet, the wording in the test was so "cute" that it made no sense and had to be thrown out and did not count towards anyone's score. And it appears there is a lot of delusional behavior when you read this site and people do not know basic things by the nature of their questions and many of those folks are taking closed book tests. I am not seeing the big time benefit to a closed book test.

Peace