22 often misunderstood rules... agree or disagree

[just another ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge


Why do you keep bringing up Team Control?

I did not bring up team control.

Number 1 in the original post in this thread: There is no 3 second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts.

The reason there is no count here is because team control ended when "the ball is in flight," or, in other words, when it was released.

And if you are calling a 3 second violation while a player is in the "act of shooting" you have not done the proper thing in my opinion. But if you see release as being a factor, then release is a factor to you. That is not how many of the officials I know called it. But if a player is just about to release the ball and you are blowing your whistle, then I do not know of many officials that would call it so tight. Not only am I talking about the rules, but I am talking about common sense. Common sense has to play apart in the application of this rule and many others.

In my experience, one of the most common situations for a 3 second violation is often just as a shot is released. A1 rebounds or catches a pass while in the lane. He kicks it out to A2, and turns to secure rebounding position in anticipation of a quick shot. A2 passes on the shot and swings the ball to A3. The defense rotates nicely and forces yet another pass.....or 2. Meanwhile, A1 is still right in the center of the lane, with his butt on B1, just like he has been taught since 4th grade. B's coach is getting louder, "3, 3, he's still in there!!" Just as A4 takes a jumper from the corner, 4.8 seconds after A1's original pass, there is a whistle. "A1, you got 3." A's
coach yells, "That's okay A1. A2, you dummy, shoot the ball!"*


This is the condensed version of this situation. The long version includes descriptions of facial expressions and the shouts of helpful fans.

[John Chladek]

11. Striking the ball handler or shooter on his/her hand, while it holding the ball, is not a foul- no matter how noisy or how much it hurts!

Sorry to be such a rookie here, but is this always true? Maybe I am letting baseball myths get in the way("the hand is NOT part of the bat"), but if a player slaps your hand while shooting, its not a foul? Where does your hand end? And this applies while dribbling, too?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by John Chladek
11. Striking the ball handler or shooter on his/her hand, while it holding the ball, is not a foul- no matter how noisy or how much it hurts!

Sorry to be such a rookie here, but is this always true? Maybe I am letting baseball myths get in the way("the hand is NOT part of the bat"), but if a player slaps your hand while shooting, its not a foul? Where does your hand end? And this applies while dribbling, too?

John,see NFHS rules 4-24-2 and 10-6-1(2nd sentence). Definitely not a myth.Apllies on a shot,dribbling,holding,etc.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by JRutledge


The following statements are absolutely true.

1. There is no 3-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts.

The release does not end a three second count, it ends technically on a try for goal (if you decide to start it at all )

Actually it does. The 3 second count continues until team control ends. Team control ends when the ball is in flight on the try...not when the act of shooting begins. The exception in the rule only applies to the player making a try for the goal. Any other player can be called for 3 seconds up until the ball is released.

7. A high dribble is always legal provided the dribbler does not turn his/her hand over when he/she dribbles!

Well the dribble ends if they turn their hand over as you state. But a high dribble is totally legal.

Why does the dribble end if they turn their hand over? The dribble ends if they catch the ball. That may occur when the hand is turned over but it doesn't necessarily have to.

16. Any contact foul during a live ball is personal, not technical!

You can have a Flagrant Foul called during a live ball.

A flagrant foul is a personal foul when the contact occurs during a live ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Camron Rust


Actually it does. The 3 second count continues until team control ends. Team control ends when the ball is in flight on the try...not when the act of shooting begins. The exception in the rule only applies to the player making a try for the goal. Any other player can be called for 3 seconds up until the ball is released.

View it the way you want to, I am not calling it while a player is attempting a shot. Whether it is the secondary player, or the player with the ball that is in jeapordy to have a 3 second violation, I am giving them a chance to complete their move. That is the way I have always interpreted it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Camron Rust

Why does the dribble end if they turn their hand over? The dribble ends if they catch the ball. That may occur when the hand is turned over but it doesn't necessarily have to.
[QUOTE]


If the ball comes to rest in their hand, you have a carry or double dribble if it is in that position.


Peace

[Stan]

In my experience, one of the most common situations for a 3 second violation is often just as a shot is released. A1 rebounds or catches a pass while in the lane. He kicks it out to A2, and turns to secure rebounding position in anticipation of a quick shot. A2 passes on the shot and swings the ball to A3. The defense rotates nicely and forces yet another pass.....or 2. Meanwhile, A1 is still right in the center of the lane, with his butt on B1, just like he has been taught since 4th grade. B's coach is getting louder, "3, 3, he's still in there!!" Just as A4 takes a jumper from the corner, 4.8 seconds after A1's original pass, there is a whistle. "A1, you got 3." A's
coach yells, "That's okay A1. A2, you dummy, shoot the ball!"*


This is the condensed version of this situation. The long version includes descriptions of facial expressions and the shouts of helpful fans.
[/B]

This is possibly the best explaination of a 3 second senario that I have ever heard. Thanks.

[theshortbaldref]

Dual control of the ball by A1 and A2 is not a travel unless one of them actually travels (???) or how about, sliding with a loose ball is not a travel, and, if on his/her back, sitting up after the fact, is also not a travel...

[ZEBRA]

I got this tidbit from Dick Cartmel,
he has officiated D1 for a number of years.
He also got to work the NCAA championship game
last year.
This is what he had to say about 3 seconds
in the key: If a player with the ball is
making a move to the basket you suspend the count
until the player ends his move,this includes
any pump fakes. Once he has passed the ball
away or he dribbles away from the lane you
get him for 3 sec.
I just want to know if you guys are calling
the game this way in H.S. or is that just
the way they call it in NCAA?
Carl

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ZEBRA
I got this tidbit from Dick Cartmel,
he has officiated D1 for a number of years.
He also got to work the NCAA championship game
last year.
This is what he had to say about 3 seconds
in the key: If a player with the ball is
making a move to the basket you suspend the count
until the player ends his move,this includes
any pump fakes. Once he has passed the ball
away or he dribbles away from the lane you
get him for 3 sec.
I just want to know if you guys are calling
the game this way in H.S. or is that just
the way they call it in NCAA?
Carl

Damn! Dick must have read my post a while back and stole it!

I always allow pump fakes as part of the consideration given.

[JRutledge]

I am with Tony on this one. I think the rule allows this to some extent and should be applied at all levels.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Damn! Dick must have read my post a while back and stole it!

I always allow pump fakes as part of the consideration given.

Is this consideration you refer to only when the player with the ball is the player in the lane? That's the way I understand it.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I always allow pump fakes as part of the consideration given.

Hmmmm, really? If I ever decided that I were going to call 3-seconds (not bloody likely!), it seems to me that pump fakes (especially multiple pump fakes) are not part of a "move to the basket". Rather, the player has stopped his move and is now trying to put the defender at a greater disadvantage. It seems that if you allow a pump fake, you have to allow two, which means that you ought to allow three, which means. . . . Am I wrong about that?

Chuck

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Hmmmm, really? If I ever decided that I were going to call 3-seconds (not bloody likely!), it seems to me that pump fakes (especially multiple pump fakes) are not part of a "move to the basket". Rather, the player has stopped his move and is now trying to put the defender at a greater disadvantage. It seems that if you allow a pump fake, you have to allow two, which means that you ought to allow three, which means. . . . Am I wrong about that?

Chuck

In my opinion, yes.

I agree with TH and Jeff -- allow the pump fakes, get the violation if a shot isn't taken (or call 5-seconds).

[Viking32]

The only thing I would add to the list is to slip this one in at #4 and drop everybody else down one.

4. There is no 3- second count in the front court while the ball is in the back court.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard coaches/fans calling for a 3-second call when the ball has just crossed the mid-court line.

Very good thread.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by ZEBRA
I got this tidbit from Dick Cartmel,
he has officiated D1 for a number of years.
He also got to work the NCAA championship game
last year.
This is what he had to say about 3 seconds
in the key: If a player with the ball is
making a move to the basket you suspend the count
until the player ends his move,this includes
any pump fakes. Once he has passed the ball
away or he dribbles away from the lane you
get him for 3 sec.
I just want to know if you guys are calling
the game this way in H.S. or is that just
the way they call it in NCAA?
Carl

THis is the way I call it...for the player with the ball. If another player is in the lane for more than three while all the fakes are going on, I will eventually call the 3 on that other player. They are illegally forcing the defense to divide their attention.