Throw-in spot
 

NCAA: A1 shoots an airball from beyond the 3 pt line at the top of the key as the shot clock expires. Is the throw-in spot on the endline or sideline where the shot left from?


Thanks!

I'm going endline as we usually don't kill the play until the ball lands, which obviously will be somewhere around the basket.

Got it, so "where the violation occurs" means endline unless the offense doesnt get a shot off at the top of the key.

I guess OOB where the airball was shot from only applies to The League.

In the NBA the ball is put on the nearest sideline where play was suspended but no nearer the baseline than the free throw line extended. In your case, the ball would be inbounded on either sideline, free throw line extended.

FIBA Ruling:

The TI spot is nearest the release of the ball.

All 3 codes aint bad
 

Thanks all!

Look up ball location in the NCAA book. Then ask yourself if the ball has contacted the floor prior to the shot-clock violation.
So according to those rules where is the ball located at the time of the violation?

You won't find "ball location" in the NCAA rule book (2009-11). You will find Section 5. Out of Bounds, Ball in Play from under rule 7.

True, but 7-5 doesn't really help us here, because it simply says that after a violation, the ball is put back in play at a spot closest to where the violation occurred. It doesn't tell us how to determine where the violation occurred.

And while the NCAA book doesn't have a section with the heading "Ball Location", the ball's location is defined for us (in terms of frontcourt/backcourt) in 4-3-3. 4-3-3a says that the if the ball is touching a player or the court, then it has the same location as that player or the court. 4-4-3b says that if the ball is airborne, then it retains the same position it had when it was last touching a player or the court.

So I think Nevada's point is the correct one here. The ball technically becomes dead before it hits the floor in the original situation. Therefore, when it becomes dead, it has the same location as when it left the shooter's hand.

Sideline throw-in.

So you're saying the NCAA throw-in spot location is the same as The League in this situation?

So that's how you have been administering it in your games?

I'm saying the correct ruling in the NCAA is a sideline throw-in.

In a word. . . yes. :)

*crickets*

Scrapper's interp may be technically correct but I can say I've never had a game where the throw-in was brought back out to a designated spot nearest the origin of the shot.

I need to pay attention to some of occurrences on TV games and see what they are doing. Really had never put much thought into it before this discussion. Guess it would make a big difference if it occurred in the waning seconds of a close game.

Nearest the spot where the violation occurred.

And for a shot clock violation, exactly where does the violation occur? The location of the shooter, the rim, or the ball?

I seem to recall that there's a case indicating the inbounds spot is the endline. That said, it's too early for me to get out my books and look myself.

Thought I would throw this in: The shot-clock horn does not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle.

Say a player attempts a three point field goal from half court, and the shot clock horn sounds in mid flight. We wait to see if the ball hits the basket, or goes in. If it doesn't, does it make sense to give the ball to the other team at half court?

So I say this situation should be handled with a throw in on the baseline. As the violation occurred when the ball did not hit the basket, or go in. Therefore nearest the spot would be the baseline.

I believe esteemed members disagree.

How? I thought about it so hard! :mad: Obviously not hard enough. He$# it sounded alright to me. Oh by the way, who is considered esteemed? I have always wanted to ask

Think about this question: Where is the ball located when the violation occurs?

Physically at the basket, technically at the location of the shooter?

Anybody have a case play? I'm more confused now than when I originally asked the question :confused:

Does that matter? (I think the throw in is at the spot of the violation, not the ball location at the time of the violation, but I don't have my books here.)

The violation is not for "failing to release a shot" but for "the ball not hitting the ring". So, the spot of the violation is the ring.

I'm not sure that is correct.

What if the defense had deflected the ball into the backcourt such that the ball was in the backcourt paint. It doesn't seem correct that you'd make the throwin spot 75' from the location of the ball.

The violation is for failing to release the shot such that it subsequently hits the rim.

I think the logical place for the violation is the location of the ball....not the rim.

Note, this is a logical POV, I've not investigated the actual rule yet.

Backcourt heave with a second on the shot clock...ball fails to hit the rim. I'd venture to say that 999/1000 officials have the throw-in spot on the endline rather than in the backcourt.

This may be a case where it may be technically correct to put it where the shooter shot it (and I'm not convinced of even that) but by practice, you're wrong.

Which was my point earlier. I've never had a game where it was brought back to the spot of the shot. It's always whistled dead once the ball hits the ground or someone catches it.

Which takes us to the next part of this discussion. I've heard some philosophize not to blow it dead if the defense catches the ball. So we know anybody who believes in that philosophy doesn't consider the violation to have occurred while the ball is still in flight.

there are two ways to violate -- fail to release the ball on a try and fail to have the ball hit the rim. Your backcourt play is the first, so the inbounds spot is in the (old) backcourt. The try-horn-miss scenario is the second, and that's not a violation until the ball misses the rim, so that's the spot of the violation.

In my searching for info, I came across the following for FIBA (highlighting mine)...

http://www.theeboa.com/tools/2010-20...renceChart.pdf

Shot Clock
24 seconds.
Ball must be released prior to sounding of horn and subsequently hit rim.
NEW: On a throw in – clock starts as soon as any player touches or is touched by the ball on the court.
If horn sounds – don’t blow whistle and wait to see what happens = if shot doesn’t hit rim or go in, or defense gets immediate control, no whistle, play continues.
Throw in for a shot clock violation is nearest to the spot where the shot was taken.
Shot clock is reset or sounds in error – official may correct it. If sounds in error, try to ignore the horn as long as neither team placed at a disadvantage.

There are a couple of statements that related to what we're discussing here. Sure, its FIBA, but I felt it still worth mentioning since FIBA has been making moves to be more like the various US rules.

I don't see it as two ways to violate....it is one compound way.

A team just has to release a try that hits the rim. If they never release the try, they've certainly not released a try that hit the rim.

From the NCAA rules book (I'm not sure which side this supports):

Section 11. Shot Clock
Art. 1. The team in control shall attempt a try for field goal within 35
seconds for (men) and within 30 seconds for (women) after any player on
the playing court legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in
or when a team initially gains possession of the ball from a jump ball, an
unsuccessful try for field goal or a loose ball.
Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s
hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

This is closest we'll come to seeing the throw-in spot addressed:

A.R. 176. A1 shoots and while the ball is in the air, the shot-clock horn sounds to indicate the end of the shot-clock period. While the ball is in the air, the official calls a double foul on A2 and B2.

...(3) The try is unsuccessful and does not hit the ring/flange. RULING: The official shall wait to see what happens to the try. The ball does not become dead until the try in flight ends.

...(3) Charge the fouls. The try ends when it is certain it will not be successful, which occurs simultaneously with the shot-clock violation. Therefore, the point of interruption is the shot-clock violation. Award the ball to Team B at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred with a reset of the shot clock.
(Rule 9-11.2, 7-5.1 and 2-11.6.e)

That being said, it sounds like an endline throw-in is in order.

So was my rational thinking somewhat correct?? I don't know what to think now either.

While it may be, I don't see were you can draw that conclusion from the posted AR. It only addresses how the shot and fouls are administered relative to each other. It is silent about where the throwin should occur.

This May Or May Not Be Relevant ...
 

I don't usually use a rule set where there is a shot clock (a few high school prep games each season), so I have no idea where the ball is inbounded on a shot clock violation, however I do know about another violation where the throwin spot may not be anywhere near the ball: Ball handler has the ball in back corner of frontcourt, near the scorer's table, and the lead official calls a three second violation on an offensive player in the paint. Ball is inbounded under the basket. Of this, I'm sure.

Very true

The violation is for the shot not hitting the ring or flange (the rim) before the shot clock horn sounds. Since the ball was in the air but did not hit the ring, the spot nearest the violation should be the endline.

No it isn't...it is for not releasing a shot before the shot clok horn sounds. The part about hitting the rim is to give it a concrete way to define if the shot was an adequate attempt vs. an attempt to skirt the shot clock rule.

Just to play devil's advocate...

What if the "shot" doesn't get anywhere close to the rim.....maybe it was a full court heave that, due to the shooter being off balance, that landed at the top of the key or at the division line.

Also, what if the thrown ball was a pass to a player near the rim (alley-oop) and the horn sounds just after the pass was released.

It seems that the defensive team should gain possession after the violation at the point where the other team had legally advanced the ball before the violation.

Also, IIRC, there have been rulings that the violation occurs retroactively to the point where the horn sounds....not when a shot misses...a delayed violation. Those cases, IIRC, related to the game clock status in the end game when the shot clock expires with little game time remaining and provide that the game clock is restored to the time when the shot clock expired.

If I'm remember that case correctly, that would support that the violation has already occurred before the ball nears the rim....perhaps just after the release.

What effect might that have on the location?

AR 33 does not support this assertion.

"A.R. 33. There are 37 seconds (men) or 32 seconds (women) on the game clock and 35 seconds (men) or 30 seconds (women) on the shot clock. Team A uses time before A1 releases the ball for a try for goal. After A1 releases the ball, the shot-clock horn sounds. The ball does not strike the ring or flange. The officials call a shot-clock violation. At the same time as the official’s whistle, the game clock sounds, signaling that the period has ended. Shall the official put two seconds back on the game clock?

RULING: No. The shot-clock horn sounded at the expiration of the shot-clock period; however, this does not stop play unless recognized by the official’s whistle. The official’s whistle for the shot-clock violation stopped play. The expiration of playing time was indicated by the timer’s signal. This signal shall terminate player activity (Rule 2-10.14). The period ended with the violation. However, in games with a 10th-of-a-second game clock display and an official courtside television monitor, when in the judgment of the official time has elapsed from when he or she signaled for the clock to be stopped to when the game clock stopped, the monitor may be used to determine the correct time to be put back on the game clock. In games without an official courtside television monitor, the official is required to have definite information relative to the time involved to correct the time elapsed.
(Rule 2-13.2.c.3, 4-62, 2-10.14, 2-11.9, 5-10.1.c, 5-10.2.a, and
6-5.1.d)"

See post #5. :)

You're wrong...

Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s
hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

Once the shot has left the shooter's hands before the buzzer sounds, the violation then becomes a matter of hitting the "rim" or not...so in the OP, the violation was for not hitting the rim...so the spot closest that violation is the endline.

How am I wrong...what I highlighted in the rule is precisely what I said.

I agree with rockyroad that this is what the violation is, but I disagree with his stating that the closest spot is the endline. What if the try is an airball? The violation occurs prior to the ball striking the floor because the try has already ended. So the ball's location is not at a point on the court near the basket. The ball is still in the air and retains the status of when it last touched a player or when it last contacted the court. I'm going with the nearest OOB spot to where the try was released.

The rule doesn't say "ball location" it says "location of the violation."

When A1 inbounds the ball and it bounces on the court, then goes OOB untouched, the ball is brought back to the original throw in spot -- because that's the spot of the violation; it doesn't go to the "ball location."

Camron, you conveniently left out the last part of Ar. 2 which both Bob and I have posted - and that is what makes your previous statement wrong.

Nevada - the violation (once the shot has left the hands) is called because the ball did not hit the "rim". That is the spot of the violation so that is where the ball should be put in play, imho.

I agree. However, you fail to appreciate that this is precisely my point. The ball didn't violate. The player who threw it did. So where is that player located? Same rationale as the throw-in violation.

And precisely where is that spot? Some point directly beneath the location of the ball in flight? What if the try is from 3/4 court and was partially blocked such that it eventually lands at the top of the key outside of the 3pt arc? What if the shot is passes completely over the backboard after the shot clock horn sounded? Do you inbound at the same place?

Or are you saying that the location of the ring is the spot of the violation because the ball failed to get there? I don't think I've ever heard anyone advocate that position.

Go back and look at what you wrote. You wrote that the ball has to hit the rim before the horn sounds. That is incorrect any way you slice it. You may have meant something else, but that is not what you wrote.

I only said that the release had to be before the horn. The ball can hit the rim after the horn.

Camron - not what I had meant to say at all. My bad. Guess I need to proofread better before I hit "post".

That's not clear at all from the way the rule is written. One says (I think) something like "release the ball on a throw-in so it's touched on the court" and the other says something like "the try fails to hit the ring." If the latter was worded "fails to release a try that hits the ring" I'd agree.

If A1's try didn't hit the ring and went OOB (before the shot clock horn sounded), the inbounds spot would be where the ball went OOB, not where the try was attempted.

That's because the ball contacted the court. That makes the OOB spot clear. The case we are discussing involves the violation occurring while the ball is still in flight.

The throw-in violation is an exception to the ball last contacting the court concept only because it is a throw-in and it is clearly defined where the subsequent throw-in will occur should a violation take place during the throw-in.

I'm still going with whenever a shot is taken and is an air ball with the shot clock expired, it will be a baseline throw in because that is where the ball missed and is coming down, which violated the provisions. If it is a half court shot and is tipped and lands at the 3 point line, then couldn't the throw in be on the sideline??

So here is my take, and I would use the common sense approach

The violation does not occur at the point the shot is taken. I would take the ball closest to where the ball ws when I blew my whistle.

The ball is not dead on a shot... It continues until the ball hits the floor, anoth player. Someplace where it did not get to the rim. Seems that is where th ball is dead and the violation occurs. This seems pretty straightforward to me. So I am going to go nearest spot to where the violation gets called because it is closest to where the violation happened.

I can agree. This is what I have been trying to think of and express.

What is in red is incorrect by rule. The try ends when it is clear that it will not be successful and that is well before the ball strikes the floor. Now if you look at the NCAA rules for the location of a ball in flight, you will find that it is considered to be at the place where it last contacted the court or was touched by a player. It is not simply a point straight below where it was in flight. That is what you are failing to appreciate.

Please read the paragraph above. You are thinking the same way as that poster.

You may be correct rule book wise Nevada (and that's a big maybe), but I feel like Kelvin's and NCHSAA's way is the accepted practice. I've never seen an NCAA game where the officials put the throw-in spot in the backcourt on a missed heave from the backcourt that didn't hit the rim. It is almost always put at the nearest spot where the ball was physically located when the whistle was blown.

I think until the NCAA comes out with a directive that supports your position, most will continue to inbound it like they have and quite frankly, it makes more sense to me.

Basically what I said 5 days ago on page 1 of this thread.

Do we have any plays readily available on YouTube involving shot clock violations and the subsequent throw-in?

The shot-clock horn does not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle. By this time the ball will be close to the floor if not already in contact. "Clear that it will not be successful", what exactly does that mean? A ball that is shot 50 feet into the air from half court, is probably not going to be successful, but how do I know for sure? Unless I wait until it comes down and strikes the floor or is below ring level, which by the time a whistle is given the ball is most likely contacting the floor at that point.

Check these out:

1) Board 41 Nassau County New York
2) http://ds062.k12.sd.us/activities%20...clockrules.pdf

They read:

1) "A-1 shoots and misses rim, horn, shot clock violation, ball to Team B at endline"

2) "If the try is unsuccessful and the ball doesn’t hit the rim or flange you have a shot clock violation, a whistle is sounded by the referee and Team B is awarded a throw-in on the end line"

The whistle does not make the ball dead on volations; a basic fundamental. At this point, the whistle is just recognition of a dead ball, which happened while the ball was in the air.

I'm not arguing accepted practice, but it seems to me the rule itself is clear that the ball should be put in play from the spot nearest the point from where it was shot.

And your references above are not official; they are local interpretations. It's like quoting a local beat cop's interpretation of search and seizure laws.

But the ball is still live in the air even though the horn sounded. Until it is unsuccessful, which we do not know until it is clearly unsuccessful (falling below the ring and/or striking the floor)

The violation occurs when the ball falls below the ring; the fact that the whistle likely won't blow until it hits the floor is irrelevant.

But the whistle acknowledges the violation. There is nothing until the whistle. I agree about the violation but by the time the whistle is blown the ball is falling to the court, if not already contacting it

I recognize that shot clock violations are a special animal, but the whistle doesn't matter for timing.

A1 dribbling, steps out of bounds. Just after he steps out, B1 comes up and shoves him. The whistle then blows for the OOB violation.
Is this an intentional personal, or intentional technical foul?

A1, with the ball in the BC, passes towards A2 in the FC. As the ball is in flight, A3 and B3 commit a double foul. Before the official can blow his whistle for the foul, A2 catches the ball in the FC. Where are you administering the throw-in for the POI?

A1 with the ball in the backcourt (FT line) as the count approaches 10. Just as the official hits 9, he launches a rainbow pass towards A2 on the front court endline. The whistle blows just as the ball is about to bounce at the FT line in the FC. Where are you inbounding?

A1 shoots a 3 pt shot, while the ball is in flight, B2 and A2 commit a double foul. The whistle blows after the ball misses everything and lands in the lane. Where is your POI?

I understand all of these, but why would the ball go back to where it was shot?

Haha...my bad! :p

I tried looking earlier, but surprisingly, people don't really put up clips of shot clock violations. I think the only way you'd find someone putting up a clip is if they tried to follow a shaky, maybe technically correct rulebook interpretation.

It strikes me that this violation is, essentially, for maintaining TC for 35 seconds without taking a proper shot; much like the 10 second backcourt violation. It also has an element of an improper shot (a shot that doesn't hit the rim or go through), much like a throw-in violation that doesn't touch a player before going out of bounds. In both of those cases, the throw-in spot is made from the spot nearest where the violating team released the ball.

But where is the rim? Its not where the shot is taken. If it was not released in time then yes at the spot of the shot would be the throw in. But if it is baseline, then we have the horn, you wait to see if the ball hits the rim, if not then you have a throw in on the baseline. Because it violated that provision of not hitting the rim. You wouldn't back the throw in up all the way to the sideline at halfcourt, for a shot coming short of the rim

I totally agree with that interp (also given by Scrapper and Nevada among others). However, as I stated earlier I have not seen it administered that way at the college level. Rest assured those first few games that come on TV this season I will be on the look out to see what's actually being done.

It's quite possible that officials are not judging the shot to be missed until the shot hits the floor or a person and thus ruling that is when the violation occurred.

It would be like administering a sideline throw in for a second free throw that was an hairball.

The rim is not what commits the violation; neither is the ball. It's the players.

Violations committed at the free throw line are administered at the end line. ;)

I know I know :), but for example sake it would be.

No, because that violation occurs inside the FT circle, which is an endline spot throw-in. Just as if a foul or travel occurs in that circle.

Agreed, which is why I differentiate between accepted practice and the rule itself. Kinda like the fact that the 3 second rule doesn't mention advantage/disadvantage, or the fact that the 10 second free throw rule usually takes at least 15-16 seconds to recognize.

No, to compare it to the OP, you'd have to change the OP to a shot released from within the FT circle; in which case the whole discussion is moot because it would go to the endline no matter who is right on this topic.

I accept y'alls concepts, but where did the violation occur if the ball did not hit the rim?

Where does a throw-in violation occur if it does not touch a player on the court?

For the point not hitting the rim though

But the differences (from where the shot was taken) make it an irrelevant comparison.

Sec. 11, Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

Which is completely irrevelant to the FT violation. We're going around in circles here, have a good day.

That was an example Snaq's. I'm supporting the endline throw in, which I think you are against?

I think you're missing the point of this debate. The debate is "at what point after the shot clock expire does it become a violation". Those who are advocating a sideline throw-in are saying we (officials) should be judging it a miss at some point while the ball is still in flight, which means the ball location would be the spot the ball was last in contact with a player (ie: a 3-point shooter).

According to the rule, when it misses the ring. I find it hard to judge a shot unsuccessful in midflight. Oh and thanks for the clarification, it was much needed

Yes, I'm against it, but my point here is the FT violation doesn't speak to it either way, because whether you base the spot on the location of the shooter or the rim, it's the same spot.

Gotcha, I agree on that, it wasn't a good example

Here's one: A1, having used his dribble and in backcourt in the paint, passes the ball towards midcourt. A2 has turned and doesn't see the ball coming. A1 chases the ball down near the division line and retrieves it. A1 has committed an illegal dribble. Is violation at midcourt where he retrieved the ball or back in the paint where he started his illegal dribble?

Assuming A1 dribbles, the throw in will be where A1 retrieved the passed ball and dribbled as that is the spot where the violation occurred.

Re-read my scenario. A1 already used his dribble prior to passing the ball. Retrieving the pass makes it an illegal dribble.

Apples and oranges.

Until A1 touches it again (a positive act), we don't deem it a dribble. It is the touching that makes it a violation.

In the shot clock situation, the underlying concept is a team can't maintain team control or possession more than the allotted shot clock period (noteing that various unrelated things pause or reset the count such as defensive violations, fouls, or timeouts). They must release a "try" before the time expires and the horn sounds. However, for the purposes of the shot clock rule (not fouls), the "try" is not considered a "try" unless it hits the rim. This is to prevent a team from throwing it "near" the basket to a teammate in an attempt to circumvent the rule.

This is an attempt discussing the concept of the rule, not the letter of the rule.

Now note the wording of the rule...

Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s
hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

I think the word "subsequently" may suggest that the violation has already occurred at the time of the horn but is delayed to see if the ball hits the rim or to in order to determine if the try is "good enough" to reset the clock. If not, the team didn't satisfy the requirement to release a legitimate "try" before the horn.

I think "subsequently" means does not continue or does not later hit the rim, in referring to the shot. I can see where your coming from, but I don't believe the violation occurs when the horn sounds even though officials do wait to see if the ball hits the rim.

So, back a year or two ago we had a discussion about A1 jumping to shoot a shot and then dropping the ball to the ground instead. Most said it was not a travelling violation until A1 touched the ball again. A few said it was an immediate violation when he dropped the ball. I'm assuming you were on the side of it not being a violation until A1 retouched the ball?

I am today.

Never knew this topic would generate such a debate. Seems like none of us really know, for sure. It may be best to ask the one who gives us games how they want it handled...



So what was the result of the travel discussion??

We took a poll.

Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is (Chicago, 1969) ...
 

I only officiate high school games, and we don't use a shot clock for public school games here in the Land of Steady Habits, so I have absolutely no input on this shot clock, throwin spot, topic.

I do find it very hard to believe that with all the college officials on this Forum, many being highly respected, esteemed, members, no one can come up with a single correct interpretation to what I would think would be not only a simple question, but a question that would have a very simple answer. I mean, collectively, you college guys must have called thousands of shot clock violations over the years, yet most of you have given little thought as to where the ball is supposed to be put back into play, or, rather, maybe the NCAA has given little thought as to where the ball is supposed to be put back into play.

It may be that it is not really that big of a deal. For all practical purposes, the spot of the shot, even if is nearer the sideline, wouldn't make that much of a difference....it is still in the backcourt and a long way from the other basket.

+1

What if the ball is thrown from the far FT line just prior to the shot clock expiring and turns out to be an airball (with the horn sounding while the ball is in flight)? Now you have to choose between the two endlines. It could make a difference late in a quarter or half.