T or ignore?....

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

sorry...to specificially quote.....2nd half, t/o red...i'm tableside calling and reporting T.O. in front of red bench. I report, then hear from AC (actually politely), "can you explain to me why that wasn't a backcourt violation?".

i explained, he disagreed, 'ok coach' (by me) and I walked away. didn't hear anymore til around :14 to go and counting.....

I see no problem with this question. Seems reasonable, polite and at an appropriate time. I'll answer that.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

sorry...to specificially quote.....2nd half, t/o red...i'm tableside calling and reporting T.O. in front of red bench. I report, then hear from AC (actually politely), "can you explain to me why that wasn't a backcourt violation?".

i explained, he disagreed, 'ok coach' (by me) and I walked away. didn't hear anymore til around :14 to go and counting.....

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I see no problem with this question. Seems reasonable, polite and at an appropriate time. I'll answer that.

If the HC didn't need an explanation I see no need in giving the AC one.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My point is, no T is going to make the game better with 14 seconds left.

Disagree. Example: Head coach already has been assessed a technical foul, but in the closing seconds is becoming heated and his players are feeding off it (becoming more physical/rough). If you dump him, the game is much more likely to end without further incident.

If, however, you have a head coach who is calmly taking his beating and wants nothing more than to see the clock hit zeros; and then you T an assistant because of a non-vulgar comment, what do you think the chances are that your game will end without further incident? Slim and none. Your T there is likely to make the game worse, in fact, rather than better.

if A1 screams, "Aren't you going to call a foul?" with 14 seconds left, aren't you going to call that?

Possible, but probably not. It's not vulgar, it's not abusive, it's just loud. If he's been a problem all night, and this is the final straw, then I can see it. But if it's just frustration, HTBT, but probably not.

If an AC yells it for the gym to hear; I just don't think I can ignore that.

Each person has to find his/her level for what's acceptable in which circumstances. This is one where I think it's better to ignore. If the comment is "Are you &%#$* kidding me? Where's the @&#$% foul????" then you leave me no choice, regardless of time/score. But for non-vulgar, non-abusive frustration, I'm very likely to ignore it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Possible, but probably not. It's not vulgar, it's not abusive, it's just loud. If he's been a problem all night, and this is the final straw, then I can see it. But if it's just frustration, HTBT, but probably not.

Each person has to find his/her level for what's acceptable in which circumstances. This is one where I think it's better to ignore. If the comment is "Are you &%#$* kidding me? Where's the @&#$% foul????" then you leave me no choice, regardless of time/score. But for non-vulgar, non-abusive frustration, I'm very likely to ignore it.

I have to disagree here if you are only waiting for the curse word. Also abusive does not mean that you had to use certain words. You can be abusive if you are loud and obnoxious. We are mostly talking about school aged kids, not the pros or even college. So if I have a kid yelling at me and saying "Are you going to call a foul?" we will have some problems. For one his behavior might prompt other out of bounds behavior and I also realize that I will have a coach or player again at some point. I am not saying that a T with 14 seconds is the best time, but if that puts a seed in the mind the next time this behavior will not be tolerated when at least I am working their game, that is a win.

I once T'd a coach with about :56 in a game and I knew I had him later in the season. He yelled when the game was quite and tried to make a situation personal. The T made the game better at the time because he did not do that again and most of all the next game I had him, he did not say a single word. Mission accomplished as far as I am concerned. And he made a comment to my partner but not to me in that second game and I did not have to address the same mess I did in the first game.

Peace

[tref]

And this my friends is the bottom line...

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Each person has to find his/her level for what's acceptable in which circumstances.

Got GM Skills?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have to disagree here if you are only waiting for the curse word.

You're right. I worded that badly. I'm not only waiting for the curse word. My point was only that using the curse words that way leaves me no choice. There will other times that are abusive, without being vulgar, as you point out. But when it is vulgar and abusive, as in my example, I think (hope) we can agree that a T there is necessary regardless of time/score.

Also abusive does not mean that you had to use certain words. You can be abusive if you are loud and obnoxious.

Agreed. But I think you can also be loud and obnoxious without being abusive. You call a foul and the kid LOUDLY says, "Oh, come on!" Loud, yes. T? Not for me.

We are mostly talking about school aged kids, not the pros or even college. So if I have a kid yelling at me and saying "Are you going to call a foul?" we will have some problems.

Agreed again. (When do we start hugging?) But for me, anyway, I may not use a technical foul to address those problems. In fact, I will almost definitely NOT use a technical foul for a first offense.

I am not saying that a T with 14 seconds is the best time

We're 4-for-4, because I agree yet again.

I once T'd a coach with about :56 in a game and I knew I had him later in the season. He yelled when the game was quite and tried to make a situation personal. The T made the game better at the time because he did not do that again and most of all the next game I had him

Then it's a great technical foul.

[tref]

Great points Scrapper1 & JRut!

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But I think you can also be loud and obnoxious without being abusive. You call a foul and the kid LOUDLY says, "Oh, come on!" Loud, yes. T? Not for me.

I had a T like this in a camp setting this summer. Initially I passed & was gonna set him straight after I took care of business. But he chose to walk behind me from the paint to the top of the key being extremely demonstrative... so I whacked him.

I hate it when the player not involved in the play is not only talking the most but also wrong as two left shoes.

Instead of using timelines for determining good technicals, I like the 3 questions we ask ourselves:

1. Does it fit the game?
2. Can my immediate supervisor defend?
3. Does it make the game better?

3 for 3 is a T!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If the HC didn't need an explanation I see no need in giving the AC one.

Unless they've been a problem or pushing the limits, why create an enemy. If he's truly looking for an explanation, give it to them.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Unless they've been a problem or pushing the limits, why create an enemy. If he's truly looking for an explanation, give it to them.

Camron you know doggone well that most of the time these are not real questions but accusations wrapped up in a question. If you thought it was something else I am sure you would have called it. Like the common one I am seeing, "Didn't they hit the arm first.......(fill in the blank)?" If I am going to have a debate of any kind, it is not going to be with an AC.

Peace

[tref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Unless they've been a problem or pushing the limits, why create an enemy. If he's truly looking for an explanation, give it to them.

Rules & regulations are in place to keep order. How is adhering to policies & procedures creating an enemy?

We give him an explanation, now he's calling timeouts & standing up more than usual, walking subs to the table, etc.

For me, if you give them an inch, 8 out of 10 times they'll take a mile. Not saying be rude or degrading to them, but rules & regs are put in place for a reason.

I tend to answer questions from HC on fouls more than violations anyway. I do not have the time to explain why this wasn't a travel. Instead I'd rather go with coach, what foot did you have the pivot being? Of course they cannot answer so its the end of the conversation...

I do not have time to explain why this wasn't a backcourt violation. Instead I'd rather go with, did you think the dribbler had all 3 points across prior to passing the ball? When they look dumbfounded, you'll see it on film coach.

I find it tough to teach rules classes during the course of the game! But I always offer to shoot them any rule via email.

We can discuss fouls & no calls all day, as that is a judgement call & they have a right to know what I saw or (God forbid) thought I saw.
Most times, you explain & they have something else to say. I can live with that from the coach, its his job. But no back & forth whatsoever with ACs or players.

[Adam]

I don't find it all that difficult to draw the line at an inch, if that's where I want it drawn. If the AC wants to take my courtesy as some sort of license, that's his problem, not mine.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't find it all that difficult to draw the line at an inch, if that's where I want it drawn. If the AC wants to take my courtesy as some sort of license, that's his problem, not mine.

True, but why even allow for the opportunity to occur?
Proactive!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't find it all that difficult to draw the line at an inch, if that's where I want it drawn. If the AC wants to take my courtesy as some sort of license, that's his problem, not mine.

Originally Posted by tref

True, but why even allow for the opportunity to occur?
Proactive!

When it is all said and done, this is really about whatever you are comfortable with. What makes me successful as an official is what makes me successful. What makes someone else successful make them successful? I do not give a damn what coaches think of me. I never really have. I have a job to do and that job comes first. If they are offended by the way I deal with them, they will probably not be around long enough for me to care or I passed 20 other schools to get to their school or conference. I have no problem answering questions, but not on every play and not yelling across the court. And I know other officials that feel they need to make everyone happy, while making no one happy. You have to do what works for you and do not care what others do in the end. There are many ways to the mountain top and we should all remember that in this discussion. That means for me AC should be seen and not heard. That is also my all sports position when I officiate/umpire and it works for me. I have found when a coach asks a question, 9 times out of 10 it is not to really get knowledge; it is to accuse you of not seeing something or agreeing with them. I would rather do that with a HC who earned the right to be the HC than someone that is helping out or no one thinks they are competent to run the program. And when the HC is not saying something I am certainly not going to get into much discussion with the AC about much of anything. Some AC are more known than others and they I will treat them as they treat me. If they are respectful or really asking a question and I have time I will answer. But that is not very often. I just think many worry too much about what coaches thing. We stop doing that then we will have less to worry about.

Peace

[Brick43]

One of my mentors once gave me this advice. Anytime one coach wants to ask you a question during a TO ask him to wait one second as you want to invite the opposing coach over too, they might want to hear this. More often then not the convo ends right there. It also lets both sides know that neither is going to be working you for calls.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Brick43

One of my mentors once gave me this advice. Anytime one coach wants to ask you a question during a TO ask him to wait one second as you want to invite the opposing coach over too, they might want to hear this. More often then not the convo ends right there. It also lets both sides know that neither is going to be working you for calls.

So you never answer questions from a coach?