You Make The Call
 

Block or charge

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Flop.

Wow did the calling official send that up north?

No call...offensive player tries to slip the defender and the contact is marginal at best

Contact maybe marginal but two playrs going to the floor like this probably deserves a call, the defense was not great and the contact changed shot... I think I'd make it a block

Icing.

Plus how else do we deter defenders from flopping... Block, score it, 1 shot!

One might ask where is the word "flop" defined in the rule book? Contact is either illegal or marginal/incidental. Just because a player flops does not mean illegal contact can not occur.

Now the only other definition one could also use for flop is faking being fouled (NFHS) which is a technical, but Ive only seen it called once in my life and told to only use in the most extreme, Ray Charles obvious situation.

As for the play, I have lateral movement by the defender after the offensive player is airborne and a blocking foul. I think the lateral movement, by the defender, caused the offensive player to clip the defender with his foot.

10-3-6-f ...
 

Try this: A player shall not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: Faking being fouled.

No Call. Marginal contact did not effect the play.

If the defender wants to be on the floor that is his buisness with his team in transition.

NFHS, NCAA Men' and Women's, and FIBA: CHARGE!!


NBA/WNBA: Who the hell knows what the call would be.

MTD, Sr. is correct....Charge. Defender established LGP prior to offensive player leaving the floor....

too many officials call blocking fouls when the offensive player is repsonsible for the contact after LGP has been established.

I agree with MTD.
However, I do believe in this Video, It was a "Flop".

+1 without a doubt

For those calling a PC foul please explain what contact A1 made to B1 to earn such a call. :confused:

Yes please! IMO, A didn't go to, let alone through the defender.

With all due respect...you state the contact is marginal, but you would call a foul...it's one of the other, if its marginal, no foul, if its a block its not marginal.

(kinda like how something can be new and yet still improved, lol)

Second, two players falling on the ground, does not a foul make. Just because a play is ugly does not mean a foul occurred. "If two players go down, I'm calling a foul" is one of the "personal philosophies" that we have been trying to get away from in the last few years.

regards,
ch

Marginal does not mean incidental.

B1 has lgp. A1 jumps and his hip hits B1's shoulder, knocking both to the floor. I'll defer to the guy with the best view of the actual contact and assume the contact was enough for a foul. I'm with MTD, Sr., on this one.

Snaqs, I don't see that contact. I see B1's upper torso already falling back (away from A1's hip) and A1's foot making contact with B1's thigh/knee. And B1's legs are outside his natural base. If A1 were attempting to dribble around B1 and contact was made between B1's knee and A1's leg that's something that all of us have called a block.

The first angle isn't good for this play, and on the second angle, A1's body blocks the camera view from seeing any concact or space, whichever the case may be, on B1's shoulder. I honestly don't think the camera gives us enough information to decide one way or the other.

I think the angles we're given are sufficient to make a call either way. I don't think the defender had a LGP, but even if he did, there wasn't IMO, close to enough contact to call a charge.

Just like Billy said, 10-3-6f.

Be Prepared, Someday, You May Have To Shoot ...
 

Seldom used. In fact, I've never seen it used, ever, in thirty years of officiating. But we have it in our "holster" if we need it.

Block/Charge with two bodies down is not a no-call.

The defender may have obtained a LGP but A1's final path wan't into it. B1's knee was extended outside of his frame and into A1's path and B1 was was still sliding towards and into A1's path after A1 was airborne.


Block...and I don't even think it was that close.

Block
 

In slow motion we can see that at about 0:10 the offensives player has gathered the ball which is the start of the habitual shooting motion and the defensive player is still moving. Block! ;)

Legal Guarding Position ...
 

Be careful here. Don't confuse continuous motion with airborne shooter. They may not be the same in all cases.

The defender must have LGP before to the offense alights, not prior to the gather.


FTR, I had a block on the 1st angle (Ts view), the 2nd angle (L view) supported a block even more. I thought the defender was going to do a split. As others have said, if it were a screen or a drive by situation we would all have a block here.

completely irrelevant to this play.

Ok, first, I still maintain that B1 has LGP, but after watching it a little more closely, I agree he continued to slide to his right after A1 went airborne. There would have been no contact had he maintained the spot he held when A1 took off.

block, but I think it's close enough to give the official a pass.

Completely irrelevant
 

Thanks Snaqwells and BillyMac for getting me back into my NFHS rule book.:rolleyes:
Rule 4-11-1 Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
Rule 4-23-1 Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or let into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position in contact occurs.
Rule 4-41-1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.
Rule 4-41-3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

Not sure what point you're trying to get across there NoFear? :confused: Are you disagreeing with what Snaq said?

And nowhere does it say the defender has to be in that position before the shooting motion begins.

I'm with Mark..

I definitely wasn't criticizing the official's call. He had a split second to make a decision.

But with the luxury of watching it in slow motion I just can't see how anybody can still have a PC on this play.

Rule 4-23-1 Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

4-41-3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

So when the offensive player starts or gathers the ball s/he is considered to be shooting, the defensive player must be at the spot if not defensive foul.

And still, nothing there says a a defender has to be in position before the player gathers the ball. 4-41-3 is only of importance when determining whether continuous motion will apply on a foul by a defensive player. Even in the NBA, which requires a defender to get to a legal guarding position earlier than NCAA/NF, they only require the player be there before the offensive player starts his upward motion.

10.6.1 Situation A: B1 takes a certain spot on the court before A1 jumps in the air to catch a pass: (a) A1 lands on B1; or (b) B1 moves to a new spot while A1 is airborne. A1 lands on one foot and then charges in B1.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the foul is on A1. (4-23-5d)

So A1, moving quickly and taking long strides, gathers for a layup at around 25 feet away from the hoop. He gathers with both feet in the air, mid stride, lands on his right foot (at the three point line), takes one more stride with his left (just inside the free throw line) and launches off that left foot for a dunk. B1 got into position as A1 was midstrde between his right and left feet You're calling a block? You're using the wrong rule. The rule you quote (4-41-3) does not state when the defender must get to his spot, its only purpose is to determine whether a shot counts with a defensive foul before the ball is released.

APG's case play and the rule it notes (4-23-5) would be a great place to start.

Nice play. It's a block.

What contact there was: - did not disadvantage/impede the defense they were already on the way to the floor. - did not disadvantage/impede the offense, shot was made and offense trying to avoid contact with a falling object causes him to end up with an awkward landing not the contact it self.

Seems to me to be a clear no call LGP, responsibility for contact aside etc.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen it, including once myself. There were a few times when I thought I saw it, but thinking it isn't enough. One must be positive.

I believe the OP's video is a perfect example. The defender started falling back before the shooter even got there.

Well color me shawked!

Simple. Can't slide to draw contact once player is airborne in HS and NCAA rules, right? Exactly what happens here. Contact disrupts the airborne player's natural motion or "rhythm" in attempting to score and causes him to go to the ground.

I've used it once, in a 7th grade YMCA game, after a warning to player and coach, when the defender grunted and fell backwards as the dribbler got to within about 6 feet of the defender.

As mentioned before marginal and incidental are not equal. With all due respect...Suggest that you go back and look at the definition of incidental.. When contact interferes with a normal offensive or defensive play it is not incidental. This paly interfered either with a LGP or the ability to come down unimpeded. Based on what I saw in video with the lean, I would call a block, however rather have a charge here than nothing.

Calling this one way or the other at least tells the team something will be called. Teams will get better position or hold up on shots. I have seen games where a play like the one shown is a no call and then you get 6-7 more like it, call one and you get less...

If you have a call, it should be a block. If you have a no call, I could live with that as well.

Calling a PC on this is horrible.

The offensive player doesn't make any contact with the chest. He barely makes contact at all -- the defensive player's right arm touches the offensive players hip and then the defensive player flops to the floor.

This isn't even close. If you think it is, go full screen on YouTube so that you can get a better look!

Legal Guarding Positon
 

In fact B1 never obtain legal guarding position.
NFHS Rule 4-23-2.
To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
A. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
B. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent.
This can be seen at the start of video.

Rule 4-23 NFHS
 

In fact B1 Never:eek: obtain Legal Guarding Position.:p
Rule 4-23-2.;)

At :02 and :11 seconds (the picture is much clearer at :11), you can see B1 facing A1 with both feet on the floor. A1's foot is still on the floor prior to his takeoff. He does have LGP. His problem is, it doesn't allow him to lean his shoulder to the right to force contact.

You're calling a block? YES.
 

YES I think you might have it know:rolleyes:, although the strides in this particular play are a bit unrealistic:confused: but if someone where able to realize such a distance it would be legal:cool:.
Rule 4- 41 is trying to tell you when the shot has begun.
I have not received the NFHS 2011-12 Case Book.:mad:
What is APG?:confused:
NFHS Rule 4-23-5 speaks of guarding a moving opponent without the ball.

The defense's movement (flop if you want) created the contact. It caused the shooter to be flipped partially over and to the floor....protect the shooter....call the block. If the shooter had stayed upright and on his feet, no call.

APG=short hand for my username.

Rule 4-41 tells us when the try begins, but that has nothing to do with whether a defender got a LGP in time. Knowing when the try begins is only important in determining if continuous motion will apply on a defensive foul.

Also guarding a moving opponent without the ball is the same as guarding a moving opponent with the ball with the only exception being that time and distance apply to a defender trying to gain LGP against the moving defender without the ball.

The distances aren't that out of line, frankly. 6 foot strides for a fast moving player isn't unheard of.

Okay, "APG" = "AllPurposeGamer". He posted the case play, even quoted it so you don't need your book. Also, check out case play 10.6.1C, in particular the ruling portion, which states in part:
You're right, I hadn't read the rule book today. It's 4-23-4b
Note that it doesn't say position must be gained before the shooting motion has begun; only that it must be gained before the opponent leaves the floor.

Legal Guarding Positon
 

By that time (:11) B1 facing A1 with both feet on the floor he is late:eek:, he did not met the requirements under rule 4-23-2:mad:
At :02 B1 is just in the lane, and by the time :11 A1 had already started his shot. BLOCK on B1;)

Legal Guarding Positon
 

B1 move into that spot after the motion started. Block:rolleyes:

Right, Rule 4-23 speaks on LGP

try rule 4-41-3 and rule 4-23.

So what are you calling on this play?
No call?
Player Control?
When determining if we have a foul we need to ask, did contact affect the rhythm speed balance or quickness of the opponent?
If so the we should have something.

Again, 4-41-3 does not apply to legal guarding position...heck even guarding at all. It tells us when the try begins and that's only important in determining whether CONTINUOUS MOTION will apply when the defense commits a foul.

4-23
ART. 4 ...Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:

b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position BEFORE the opponent left the floor.

The bold part is my emphasis. Nowhere does it say that LGP must be obtained before the gather.

Why do you keep bringing up "started his shot"? It has nothing to do with the play.

It's a block in this play b/c of the unnatural width of B1's stance which is what caused the contact between B1's leg and A1's foot.

BTW, I just realized I know the calling official in this video. I'm gonna have to ask him about this play when I see him this fall.

Absofreakinglutely, call it like it is Brad!

An important factor that hasn't been brought up is the team officiating concept. I think its safe to say that 80% of us say its not a p/c. The more important piece would be "why" was it ruled incorrectly??
I know in different parts of the country we have different philosophies on who gets first crack at block/charge plays. But staying connected to SDF plays that go to the rim at T/C would permit a great opportunity for a double whistle in this sitch! Would've been nice to see the T pop & maybe the two officials could've communicated & came out with the right call.

It all boils down to a detailed pregame... a flop is a block tonight, 2 opponents going down in the paint after the shot & before the shooter lands needs a whistle, double whistles on 2ndary defenders go to the L, etc.

Being likeminded is crucial here, perhaps the T was passing on the flop/block & the L has bodies on the floor in the paint so he feels obligated to put a whistle on it. IMO, the L never really picked up the 2ndary defender & goes with a p/c.

NoFear: There comes a time when we have to say we were wrong, learn from it & move on. You've been provided with ample rules & caseplays to support the difference between, when LGP must be obtained vs. continuous motion.

On first view I had a block or a no call. (I am infamous for the no call on marginal contact). Then with instant replay slowing down the play I can see the defender is planted and not moving so I think Charge. Then I re-watch the play one more time to see if the defender was set prior to the shooter leaving the floor and I see he was not. So I am back to my original block or no call. Moral of the story.... Replay really gets in the way of calling a game and oh yeah stick to your original instincts.....

This was the Lead's call. No way the T can pick up the secondary defender (B2) on this play. T has A1 being contesting by B1 on the drive and then B2 shows up right in front of the Lead. The Lead rightfully had the only whistle on this play, just unfortunate that replays shows he probably got it wrong.

Same point BNR made.

I'm also in strong agreement that plays like this need to be part of the crews pregame, good point.

So what happened to staying connected to plays that originate in your PCA?

Isn't the primary function of the T to be refereeing the ball handler & defender while seeing as many of the other 8 players as possible?

I understand that some officials choose to give L 1st crack at it, but there's nothing wrong with doubling down in proper cadence, especially when we see the L is about to get it wrong. I think the official who saw the start of the play, then saw it develop towards the rim & saw the finish of the play has a better chance of getting it right than the official who catches the a$$-end of the play.

In a perfect world, after the L pops & before he punches: T *tweet tweet - tweet tweet* Get together for less than 7 seconds, score it, block, 1 shot.
L buys the beer!

Say for instance we have the same play but it comes from the Cs side. The 2ndary defender is on the other side of the lane line & the L didnt get a chance to rotate. That C had better be able to pick up the defender if we dont want the L calling across paint!

Look at the play again. The Trail initially did not follow the play down so he was out of position. And even if he did follow the play he would not have seen the secondary defender move into place because A1 & B1 would have blocked his view.

Hopefully the Lead would have at least closed down so he would have still had a good look. But regardless if the play would have originated from the C's PCA he would have been at the free throw line extended when the play started, not at half court. So he would have had been below the play the play and had a clean look at any secondary defenders coming into his viewing area.

Cool, we agree... somewhat :D

The T needs to stay connected here! But If the C should position themselves to pick up 2ndary defenders, so should the T. Not saying to guess, if you dont see it, then you don't see it! But at the rate the game is progressing, the good officiail must be able to multi-task.

I don't see how the T can position himself to see a secondary defender on this play. He has the play from half court, his first priority is to see between the defender and ball-handler, which he may still have done when he was out of camera shot. The T stays connected by refereeing B1 on this play. The Lead stays connected by picking up the secondary defender.

The C would have been set up at the free throw line looking back at the play. His peripheral would allow him to pick up a secondary defender coming from the paint.

You cannot compare the T and C on this play.

Again the applicable rule is 4-23-4b. Also, you stated he never obtained LGP, when in fact he did. He got it, at the latest, right before A1 took off. His problem is that LGP does not allow him to lean sideways into contact, which he did, thus earning the block. Had he not leaned and still been run over, the timing was in his favor.

He does not need to be set. Please get that word out of your vocabulary. He needs LGP, which he had. A player need not ever be stationary to obtain LGP. He just can't lean like he did.

As I look a bit closer at this play & in defense of the T, the 2ndary defender is coming over at the same time that the initial defender gets beat... you're right, tough play for the T (only because he got stuck in the mud & didnt position adjust by taking a mere 3-4 steps down).

On the other hand, if B2 senses the defender will be beat (his reason for coming to help B1) shouldn't the T be thinking the same thing, if not a step ahead of the young player?

I don't understand this mentality. Why isn't a flop simply a flop?

He's depending on his partner to do that. The Trail has to focus on his one-on-one matchup, he needs to keep an angle that allows him to see in between A1 and his primary defender. The Trail is still responsible for any contact that B1 may cause when A1 elevates for his shot.

Yep. There's nothing illegal about a player falling backwards to absorb contact.

When a flop doesnt result in any contact whatsoever, it obviously cannot be a block.

When a flop causes the airborne shooter to hit the deck, in order to do our job & protect the shooter, to me, its gotta be a block.

When 2 bodies are down & the defender laid down causing the shooter to go down... BLOCK.

In my experiences, calling a flop a block keeps players from flopping.
I've even heard coaches say to their players, "Play D & stay on your feet, they arent going for it tonight!"


Yep. They may also turn or duck when contact is immenent.
The bolded part is not only part of that rule, it is also missing from this equation. Sorta like the word intentional in a kicking violation.

I hear ya, but if the T glances to see where the L is looking, then he would see that the L is locked in on the drive & the T could referee through the primary matchup to get the 2ndary defender.

You know BNR, like when your partner indicates a 3 has been attempted but you notice his head constantly goes with the flight of the ball as opposed to watching their shooter up & down. After acknowledging this & my partner is still amazed with the flight of the ball, I'd be a fool not to stay with their shooter. Sometimes we have to improvise.

And on a play like this the defender gets the benefit of the doubt on whether contact is imminent. No way I'd consider the OP does not involve imminent contact, for example.

IDK Snaqs.
For me imminent implies that it is obvious that the shooter/passer is about to go "to & through" the defender. As I stated waaaay back in this thread, A1 never got "to" let alone showed any signs whatsoever of going "through" the defender. He11, IMO he made every effort to avoid contact.

Thanks tref, I am here to learn. I understand LGP and continuous motion I am not using one over the other. I am using them together.
Aren’t they to be used but together?
Please would you point out the case play once more?
Thanks!

4-11 Continuous Motion

ART. 1...Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by a defensive player during the interval which beings when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
ART. 2...If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movements, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

Continuous motion and LGP have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

B1 got to his spot at least right before A1 took off by that time A1 was in the act of shooting B1 is late.

@ :10 A1 has gathered the ball this is the start of his layup/shot, 2 feet in the air dribble has ended. B1 as you can see @:02 B1 has not established LGP, B1 has 2 feet on playing court but his torso is not face A1.

Arent we all!

I'll try to do you one better, how about the rule as written?

4-23-4
Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:

b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

Like Ragu... it's in there!


It sounds like your problem with understading the rule lies here:

Took off = Alight
Defender must obtain LGP prior to this.

Act of shooting = Gather
Defender can obtain LGP here OR before the shooter "takes off" & may move to maintain LGP during the act of shooting.

I'm sure you've seen a "set-shot" before? They never "take off" or alight but they still are in the "act of shooting" at some point.

On block/charge plays if we punch it, continuous motion is out the window & LGP is all that applies. If we block it, continuous motion applies because LGP obviously wasn't established.

To me its one or the other, we need not combine these rules to come to a decision.

If B1 did not gain LGP like in this play then we allow A1 to continue with his shoot. Because B1 has fouled A1.
They something to do with each other, right?

We need to know when the shot begins in order the establish if the defender has LGP

We allow A1 to continue with his try because he was fouled while in the act of shooting...just like we would anytime. That's all that continuous motion deals with...whether a basket will count due to a defense foul during the act of shooting. It doesn't tell us that a defender must be there prior to the gather. The End.

The only rule that deals with LGP and when a defensive player has to obtain it in regards to an airborne player has been posted 3 times already...it's must be obtained before a player is airborne.

Where do you get this info from?

You still have yet cite a rule or case play showing this to be the case.

An airborne opponent with the ball might not be an airborne shooter.
An airborne shooter has protection from the start of the shot and this might be some distance away, our view has to be wide enough to see where A1 starts/gathers the ball and what B1 is doing, here we need to know if B1 has LGP or not.

You do realize you're the only one who's supporting this position. You should probably rethink your position when everyone in the thread has disagreed with you. Literally no one has even come close to supporting your interpretation.

No rule set requires a defender to get a legal position prior to gathering the ball. None. No matter how much you try to combine or misinterpret rules...heck, even in the NBA, where a defender has to be there slightly earlier than under NF/NCAA rules, they require the defender to be there prior to the upward motion of the offensive player. If we followed your interpretation of the rule, there would be almost no charges on plays to the basket.

Rule 4-23-1 Guarding....provided such player get there first without illegally contacting an opponent...
Rule 4-23-2 To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
Rule 4-23-2 a, b.
Rule 4-41-1 Shooting....
Rule 4-41-4The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball

So are you calling a player control foul on this play?

No, I'm calling a block because I had lateral movement by the defender AFTER the player was airborne...like I stated in my first post.

Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard legally and how obtain LGP and in order to know if LGP was obtained Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting begins.

At least you got the call right!

No combination of these rules says a defender must have LGP before a offensive player begins his shot. Why are you ignoring the cites about the defender establishing LGP before A1 leaves the ground?

I know my opinion prolly doesn't matter much in all these mess of opinions and thoughts but I'm sharing it anyway.

I can see everyone's point. From Player Control, to Block to No call and realize that even in slow motion replay and having watched it 10 times we all can have different opinions.

Although there is no way to prove my theory, but I believe that had the defender stood in there playing "solid" defense and tried to stay on his feet this would have been a no call situation with the offensive player scoring the basket with "marginal" contact.

To me this play comes down to so many other things than a simple block/charge call. It funnels down to my personal philosophy of officiating basketball. I believe in being as consistent as possible as a crew and as an individual. Things that have occurred prior in this game have set a precedence and thus I feel the right call would be that which has matched previous calls.

In this situation I believe that the defender had established LGP. As per rule 4 under "guarding" the defender has the right to "turn or duck to absorb shock when contact by the dribbler is imminent." But it doesn't address how we handle a play where the defender falls down prior to contact or with very limited contact. Only under rule 10 does it give us an application of how to deal with one who fakes being fouled. I'd be hesitant to declare that this defender faked being fouled because I honestly believe that he fell only when he felt contact (even though it may have been very slight contact).

In short I think the play can be validated either way you look at it. I agree with prior posts that with two apposing players going to the floor they've made the decision for you that a whistle needs to accompany the play, so I don't think a no call is an sagacious option even tho I do feel that the contact (if any) was slight. Either call block or charge is going to be questioned.

What if A1 passes the ball while airbornre before crashing into B1? When did B1 need to have established LGP?

And? :confused: I feel like I must be speaking another language because this rule is so simply as to not need the 20 or so responses we've had to it.

The whole reason we have rule 4-41 and the act of shooting defined is because we have rule 4-11 that deals with continuous motion that tells us a try will count if an offensive player is fouled during the act of shooting. Nowhere does any of the guarding rules mention the act of shooting/try. All the guarding rules have told us is if a player has the ball, a defender has to obtain LGP before the player is airborne. Nothing more, nothing less.

Most definitely, I understand this fact. Thats why the rules-makers made it broad! It applies to an airborne opponent that shoots, passes, rebounds or catches a pass. The defender cannot slide under the airborne player, defense must be there prior to the offense alighting.

Block/Charges plays to the basket rarely happen instantaneously upon the gather & usually doesn't involve the primary defender. Usually there's at least a stride prior to crashing (if you're lucky :D) in between that gather & stride is where the primary defender reaches in & hits the arm or whatever. At this point LGP is out the door & continuous motion applies.

True, we need to know when the ball is gathered & the legality of the defender at this point. But from the time of the gather & crash there will most likely be some contact that takes LGP by a 2ndary defender out of the equation.

Okay, Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting starts. Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard and obtain LGP, LGP can not be obtain after the shooter was started the act of shooting.

Airborne shooters are afforded protection under rule 4-41