You Make The Call

[Raymond]

This guy is a troll. In his very first post he said he was working a NCAA Division 2 basketball game.

Now he doesn't know that LGP must be obtained prior to the offensive player going airborne.

Being as he was supposedly working a D2 game my rules citation should apply to him yet he is ignoring it.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have never read that a defender must establish LGP before a shooter begins his shooting motion. I have always thought it must be established before A1 gets airborne. I've been wrong all these years? If so I would really appreciate a word-for-word citation so I can stand corrected.

Here is the college rule, I guess HS rules are different in regards to airborne shooters

Rule 4-35:
Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the
ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.Exception: (Men) Rule 4-35.7

Art. 5. To establish legal guarding position on a player without the ball:
a. Time and distance shall be required to attain an initial legal position;
b. The guard shall give the opponent the time and distance to avoid
contact;
c. The distance given by the opponent of the player without the ball need not be more than two strides; and
d. When the opponent is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

So my verdict is that he is a TROLL.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have never read that a defender must establish LGP before a shooter begins his shooting motion. I have always thought it must be established before A1 gets airborne. I've been wrong all these years? If so I would really appreciate a word-for-word citation so I can stand corrected.

Here is the college rule, I guess HS rules are different in regards to airborne shooters

Rule 4-35:
Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the
ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.Exception: (Men) Rule 4-35.7

Art. 5. To establish legal guarding position on a player without the ball:
a. Time and distance shall be required to attain an initial legal position;
b. The guard shall give the opponent the time and distance to avoid
contact;
c. The distance given by the opponent of the player without the ball need not be more than two strides; and
d. When the opponent is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

Thanks for the college rule,
d. [B]When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

I am not Interpreting this as an airborne shooter, for airborne shooter i will use rule 4-71

The criteria for when a shoot begins (rule 4-71-3) and as you have already posted guarding (4-35) are clear to me.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have not done a lot of posting this summer but I have making an effort to read the threads. And I would like to thank all of the posters who have taken NoFear to task regarding his non-sensical reading of the rules regarding guarding, screening, and act-of-shooting/try. Great job guys.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Thanks for the college rule,
d. [B]When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

I am not Interpreting this as an airborne shooter, for airborne shooter i will use rule 4-71

The criteria for when a shoot begins (rule 4-71-3) and as you have already posted guarding (4-35) are clear to me.

That's your problem. Stop interpreting the rule and just read the d@mned thing. When the shot begins only matters if there is a defensive foul during the interval beginning at the start of the shot and ending with the release of the shot. Determining whether it's a foul is done separately, this rule does not help in that issue; it's only purpose is to determine whether a shot should count when a foul is called.

Finally, you really should listen to the experienced officials on here. The combined officiating experience of the officials who have told you you're wrong on here exceeds the combined ages of your graduating high school class. If you don't believe us, take your ridiculous interpretation and philosophy to the local association leadership.

[Adam]

Finally, NoFear, you should consider this situation:

A1 gathers his dribble on the run, in the air. He lands on his left foot and jumps, landing on both feet (legal jump stop). B1 sets up between the landing spot and the basket, right before A1 changes direction and jumps directly into B1's chest (knocking both players to the floor).

Your philosophy and interp would have you calling a block on this play, and you would be the only official I've ever met who'd call it that way.

[NoFear2020]

Thanks for the feedback, but there is no need to get personal just because I disagree with you.

Thank you.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Finally, NoFear, you should consider this situation:

A1 gathers his dribble on the run, in the air. He lands on his left foot and jumps, landing on both feet (legal jump stop). B1 sets up between the landing spot and the basket, right before A1 changes direction and jumps directly into B1's chest (knocking both players to the floor).

Your philosophy and interp would have you calling a block on this play, and you would be the only official I've ever met who'd call it that way.

This what the video is almost showing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

This what the video is almost showing.

No, it's not. The video is a block, but not remotely for the reason you propose. And yes, the reasoning matters, otherwise one could cone up with all sorts of stupid rulings.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That's your problem. Stop interpreting the rule and just read the d@mned thing. When the shot begins only matters if there is a defensive foul during the interval beginning at the start of the shot and ending with the release of the shot. Determining whether it's a foul is done separately, this rule does not help in that issue; it's only purpose is to determine whether a shot should count when a foul is called.

Finally, you really should listen to the experienced officials on here. The combined officiating experience of the officials who have told you you're wrong on here exceeds the combined ages of your graduating high school class. If you don't believe us, take your ridiculous interpretation and philosophy to the local association leadership.

So i read this [B]d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court. and my problem is i do not infer airborne shooter, but you want my to infer that it does?

No disrespect to all the experienced officials on here, but after i do the math i come up with a number 2600 years.

I feel that your upset and have taken what i said as a personal attack, please don't. My intention is to always keep improving. I have been visiting this site since about 1997, but only recently started posting, as a discussion board i feel that i can express my opinions freely, if name call is the end result of difference of opinion then i will have to remember that.
Once again thank you all experienced officials and not so experienced ones.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

This guy is a troll. In his very first post he said he was working a NCAA Division 2 basketball game.

Now he doesn't know that LGP must be obtained prior to the offensive player going airborne.

Being as he was supposedly working a D2 game my rules citation should apply to him yet he is ignoring it.



So my verdict is that he is a TROLL.

Real big of you to resort to name calling.

I do less than a dozen D2 games a year probably not enough to claim D2 status, I will remove this from my profile.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I'm pretty sure that BM is being sarcastic.

What? There is absolutely, positively, no place for sarcasm on the Forum. Never has been sarcasm on the Forum. Never will be sarcasm on the Forum. Even a slight hint at sarcasm would take away from the intellectual purity of the Forum.

“Sarcasm is the language of the devil, for which reason I have long since as good as renounced it.” (Thomas Carlyle, Scottish Historian and Essayist, 1795-1881)

[Adam]

You shouldn't infer anything. The wording is clear and inference isn't necessary. It doesn't distinguish between a player who is shooting and one who isn't.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Real big of you to resort to name calling.

I do less than a dozen D2 games a year probably not enough to claim D2 status, I will remove this from my profile.

If you are working D2 games you should know what " the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court" means without have to infer anything.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

your graduating high school class

You're assuming facts not in evidence.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

So i read this [B]d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court. and my problem is i do not infer airborne shooter, but you want my to infer that it does?

It applies to any player who leaves the floor, whether he's a shooter or not. That player is then allowed to land (assuming the landing spot was not legally occupied when he left the floor, etc.)

And, when it applies to a shooter, it applies WHEN THE PLAYER LEAVES THE FLOOR, not when the player begins his try.