No, I'm calling a block because I had lateral movement by the defender AFTER the player was airborne...like I stated in my first post.

Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard legally and how obtain LGP and in order to know if LGP was obtained Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting begins.

At least you got the call right!

No combination of these rules says a defender must have LGP before a offensive player begins his shot. Why are you ignoring the cites about the defender establishing LGP before A1 leaves the ground?

I know my opinion prolly doesn't matter much in all these mess of opinions and thoughts but I'm sharing it anyway.

I can see everyone's point. From Player Control, to Block to No call and realize that even in slow motion replay and having watched it 10 times we all can have different opinions.

Although there is no way to prove my theory, but I believe that had the defender stood in there playing "solid" defense and tried to stay on his feet this would have been a no call situation with the offensive player scoring the basket with "marginal" contact.

To me this play comes down to so many other things than a simple block/charge call. It funnels down to my personal philosophy of officiating basketball. I believe in being as consistent as possible as a crew and as an individual. Things that have occurred prior in this game have set a precedence and thus I feel the right call would be that which has matched previous calls.

In this situation I believe that the defender had established LGP. As per rule 4 under "guarding" the defender has the right to "turn or duck to absorb shock when contact by the dribbler is imminent." But it doesn't address how we handle a play where the defender falls down prior to contact or with very limited contact. Only under rule 10 does it give us an application of how to deal with one who fakes being fouled. I'd be hesitant to declare that this defender faked being fouled because I honestly believe that he fell only when he felt contact (even though it may have been very slight contact).

In short I think the play can be validated either way you look at it. I agree with prior posts that with two apposing players going to the floor they've made the decision for you that a whistle needs to accompany the play, so I don't think a no call is an sagacious option even tho I do feel that the contact (if any) was slight. Either call block or charge is going to be questioned.

What if A1 passes the ball while airbornre before crashing into B1? When did B1 need to have established LGP?

And? :confused: I feel like I must be speaking another language because this rule is so simply as to not need the 20 or so responses we've had to it.

The whole reason we have rule 4-41 and the act of shooting defined is because we have rule 4-11 that deals with continuous motion that tells us a try will count if an offensive player is fouled during the act of shooting. Nowhere does any of the guarding rules mention the act of shooting/try. All the guarding rules have told us is if a player has the ball, a defender has to obtain LGP before the player is airborne. Nothing more, nothing less.

Most definitely, I understand this fact. Thats why the rules-makers made it broad! It applies to an airborne opponent that shoots, passes, rebounds or catches a pass. The defender cannot slide under the airborne player, defense must be there prior to the offense alighting.

Block/Charges plays to the basket rarely happen instantaneously upon the gather & usually doesn't involve the primary defender. Usually there's at least a stride prior to crashing (if you're lucky :D) in between that gather & stride is where the primary defender reaches in & hits the arm or whatever. At this point LGP is out the door & continuous motion applies.

True, we need to know when the ball is gathered & the legality of the defender at this point. But from the time of the gather & crash there will most likely be some contact that takes LGP by a 2ndary defender out of the equation.

Okay, Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting starts. Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard and obtain LGP, LGP can not be obtain after the shooter was started the act of shooting.

Airborne shooters are afforded protection under rule 4-41

I don't have any books with me.

Could you please quote me word for word which rule says LGP cannot be obtained after the shooter has begun the act of shooting? I've never read that.

Thanks?
I am still maintaining what i have from the start. B1 did not have LGP.

I have never read that a defender must establish LGP before a shooter begins his shooting motion. I have always thought it must be established before A1 gets airborne. I've been wrong all these years? If so I would really appreciate a word-for-word citation so I can stand corrected.

Here is the college rule, I guess HS rules are different in regards to airborne shooters :confused:

Rule 4-35:
Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the
ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.Exception: (Men) Rule 4-35.7

Art. 5. To establish legal guarding position on a player without the ball:
a. Time and distance shall be required to attain an initial legal position;
b. The guard shall give the opponent the time and distance to avoid
contact;
c. The distance given by the opponent of the player without the ball need not be more than two strides; and
d. When the opponent is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

The only rules that apply to defending an airborne opponent are 4-23-4 and 4-23-5. What youre missing is anything that ties LGP to the shooting motion. You cant just find two separate rules and combine them on a whim.

4-23 Guadring

ART. 1...Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent....

Now how does a defender legally place the body in the path of an offensive player?

ART 2...To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Now when does a guard have to obtain LGP?

ART 4...Guarding an opponent with the ball or stationary opponent without the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

ART. 5... Guarding a moving opponent without the ball:
a. Time and distance are factors required to obtain an initial legal position.
d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

That's is. In the section that deals with defining guarding, nowhere do you find the act of shooting.