Thanks BktBallRef

[APHP]

Thanks to BktBallRef (Tony) for his annual quiz(s). Tony you do an outstanding job with the questions and answers. Everyone, especially the rookies, are sure to learn from these test.

Now---I have always had a problem with the generally accepted answer to the following:::Question #6 on BktBallRef's Quiz---Backcourt Violation or Not.

A1 is straddling the division line, with his right foot in the FC his left foot in the BC. A1 catches the pass, fumbles it, then immediately starts to dribble the ball in the FC while still straddling the division line. Is this a BC vioation. IAABO and BktBallRef's answer is False.

Rule 4, Section 21---A fumble is accidental loss of PLAYER CONTROL when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp.

When A1 fumbled the ball into the frontcourt (player control ended) the ball now has frontcourt status and in team A control. If the ball is loose (free-with no player control) in the frontcourt, then the ball has obtained frontcourt status--while still in team A's control. I fail to see how this can be disputed. The fact that A1 now starts to dribble the ball, does not now change the ball to backcourt status, without a violation.

In Question #1 of the same test, it is admitted that "when the ball hit the floor in the FC, FC status was attained". If this is true, then why does the beginning of a dribble now put the ball into the backcourt, still in control of team A without a violation.

If I may take the liberty to re-word the question and leave out some of the impertinent words:::A1 fumbles the pass from A2 while standing in the backcourt. The ball rolls into the frontcourt and remains there for 10-seconds bouncing. A1 without crossing the division line is able to reach the ball and start a dribble. Violation or Not ??

Again, the ball has achieved frontcourt status, and the fact that the next touching was the beginning of a dribble or to pick-it-up, to me is irrelevant.

I know the first thing I am going to hear is the "3-point rule-both feet and the ball". But would someone explain to me why if the ball has frontcourt status in team A's frontcourt, the ball can then return to team A's backcourt still in team A's control without it being a violation?

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I just can't see how the ball can have frontcourt status, then simply by beginning (not continuing) a dribble while standing in the backcourt now "CHANGES" the ball from frontcourt status to backcourt status.

Hope everyone has a good game tonight and an enjoyable week-end.

[Hawks Coach]

Agreed - this is probably the one that I think is least consistent. We treat the fumble as the start of a dribble if A starts dribbling, as a fumble if A picks the ball up. To me, fumbling does not start a dribble because the start of a dribble is a conscious, intentional act. In my world, the dribble should start when A first pushes the ball to the floor rather than when A drops the ball to the floor unintentionally.

[Adam]

In answering the question, Tony explicitly stated that the question mentioned nothing of whether the ball hits the floor while fumbled.
Player fumbles the ball, but before it hits the floor recovers by beginning a dribble. Ball never gains FC status. No violation.
You're right, if the ball hits the floor in the FC during the fumble, though.

snaqs

[Hawks Coach]

I'll buy that, but it's a stretch. It is an extremely rare fumble that does not hit the floor. In fact, I am not sure that the concept of the fumble even applies except when a ball hits the floor. I have never seen a case that refers to such a situation. The fumble rule exists to differentiate a fumble from a dribble - if it doesn't hit the floor, this distinction is rather meaningless.

[Adam]

Not quite meaningless, as a player cannot travel during a fumble. Can she?

[CYO Butch]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Not quite meaningless, as a player cannot travel during a fumble. Can she?

A player cannot travel while dribbling either, right?

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Not quite meaningless, as a player cannot travel during a fumble. Can she?

Rule 4
Section 15, Dribble
NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.
Section 21, Fumble
A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

Now clearly you cannot travel while not in control (although you should tell some of your collegues about that rule!), but the dribble rule is the only one that mentions fumbling the ball as an exception.

[APHP]

Snaquell--if the ball never hits the floor, then I have to no problem..other than to say it is a very poorly worded question. Not to reflect on BktBallRef, because this is the same way IAABO worded it...if IAABO was trying to "trick" someone with this question, then they done a good job.

[Mregor]

Originally posted by APHP

A1 is straddling the division line, with his right foot in the FC his left foot in the BC. A1 catches the pass, fumbles it, then immediately starts to dribble the ball in the FC while still straddling the division line. Is this a BC vioation. IAABO and BktBallRef's answer is False.

Rule 4, Section 21---A fumble is accidental loss of PLAYER CONTROL when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp.

When A1 fumbled the ball into the frontcourt (player control ended) the ball now has frontcourt status and in team A control. If the ball is loose (free-with no player control) in the frontcourt, then the ball has obtained frontcourt status--while still in team A's control. I fail to see how this can be disputed. The fact that A1 now starts to dribble the ball, does not now change the ball to backcourt status, without a violation.

He never said he fumbled the ball into the FC therefore no FC status. If the ball had hit the court in the FC, then it would be a violation (caused the ball to go from the BC, to FC, and return to BC in team control. I think the point he is trying to make here is the 3 point rule for FC status while dribbling.

Mregor

[Adam]

Good point. He doesn't say if, or more importantly "where" the ball lands during the fumble. Only that the dribbled (controlled) ball is in the FC. I can easily picture a ball fumbled into the BC where the player recovers with a dribble starting in the FC.

[BktBallRef]

Well, I'm finally home. so I'll weigh in on this thread.

I can't remember where I actually got this question from. APHP may be correct as it may have been from an IAABO exam.

In any case, a ball can be fumbled without touching the floor. 4-21 defines a fumble as when a "ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player' s grasp." I intentionally worded play #1 to include "hits the floor" and intentionally worded play #6 without the ball hitting the floor, which, I think, defintely makes the play legal.

Now, MHO. In play 1, I will always rule FC status and call the BC. In play 6, if the ball is fumbled, even if it hits the floor, and a dribble is immediately started, I'm going to give the player the benefit of the doubt. I'm not calling a BC violation, specifically in a situation like play #6 where he doesn't move his feet. I think the intent of the statement, "A player is not dribbling.... when he/she fumbles.." is moreso with regards to not calling a double dribble violation. In an ordinary situation, if a player fumbled the ball and started a dribble, it's of no consequence.

Does that rationale make any sense to anyone else?