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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 21, 2000, 12:48am
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quote:
Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker:
If the penalty (for unsportsmanlike behavior) becomes too minute, then it's not going to do it's "job" of encouraging proper behavior on the court. The prospect of losing the ball should, theoretically at least, provide some additional incentive for a player or coach keeping his/her mouth shut. They know the rule, so if they want to jeopardize possession while on offense, so be it. ]


I guess I would support that theory if they could also penalize the defense by taking the ball away from them. Oh wait - they already don't have the ball

I really don't care what the penalty is as long as it's substantive - AND is an equal penalty for either team AT ANY POINT IN THE GAME! Wouldn't you prefer to be able to call a technical when the bad behavior happens, instead of waiting for a change of possession, like we are told to do sometimes?

Where is it written that there is more of an expectation of sportsmanship from a team when they have the ball than when they don't? Answer - nowhere. Yet the penalty is harsher for a team when they have the ball for behavior that may be identical that of the other team when the other team doesn't have it. That's an inequity in the rules that needs to be corrected.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 21, 2000, 08:25am
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My two cents worth. I can see both sides of this discussion but I lean more toward leaving the penalty as is for the following reason:

Teams on offense lose possession for ALL OTHER fouls or violations commited while on offense. I think a "T" is no different as far as a foul is concerned other than the typically unsportsmanlike nature of the call.

In my mind, (1) it is the unsportsmanlike nature of a technical that results in the two free-throws and (2) it is the foul (even though technical) that results in loss of possession. I believe that double penalty is there for a reason.

Sidenote: I can think of one situation where a technical foul will not automatically result in the violating team losing possession. A dunk during pregame warm-ups. I believe the rule is shoot the FT's and then line up for a jumpball.

Just a thought: Imagine if the NBA went to the Federation rule on Intentional. We would have seen a LOT less Hack-a-Shaq because the Lakers would shoot then get the ball back.

Again, just my two cents.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 21, 2000, 08:47am
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quote:
Originally posted by mikesears:
Sidenote: I can think of one situation where a technical foul will not automatically result in the violating team losing possession. A dunk during pregame warm-ups. I believe the rule is shoot the FT's and then line up for a jumpball.





Not true - at least in Fed. See case 6.3.1F.


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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 21, 2000, 11:54am
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Todd-

You stat that the on ly sport where officials can give (take, really) a point is BOXING, and we don't want to go there!

How about holding in the end zone = safety = points. Or a balk with a runner at third = 1 point. Or, perhaps, goaltending? (I think that soccer refs can now award a goal for a handball if it was obviously going into the net without the handball, but I could be wrong.) Indeed, as I recall in much earlier days of basketball, instead of shooting bonus free throws, after an alotment of fouls was exceeded, a foul resulted in one point for the fouled team,and the other team got the ball back -- creating an obvious strategy for the losing team at the end of a game.

That being said, I agree that (outside of rec leagues) awarding points is a terrible idea.
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Old Wed Jun 21, 2000, 02:30pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears:
[B]
>Teams on offense lose possession for ALL OTHER fouls or violations commited while on offense. I think a "T" is no different as far as a foul is concerned other than the typically unsportsmanlike nature of the call.<

Maybe this is wrong too!

>In my mind, (1) it is the unsportsmanlike nature of a technical that results in the two free-throws and (2) it is the foul (even though technical) that results in loss of possession. I believe that double penalty is there for a reason.>

Shouldn't that reason, whatever it is, apply evenly to teams that do and do not have the ball?

I know I'm belaboring the point, but I would like the NF to form a study group on this issue.

Maybe now that they have their own discussion boards, we can get somewhere.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 22, 2000, 10:59am
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I think there will be much discussion about this because the Nat. Fed. rules typically change after college rules change. I am willing to enforce the rule however it is written because I am only marginally on the side of the way the rule is written.

I believe our discussion is NOT about the free throws as we both agree that free-throws are an acceptable penalty for a "t". Our discussion seems to focus more around the issue of possession after the free-throws. You contend that it should go back to the team who had it before the "T" was called because you feel that a technical foul should ONLY result in free-throws. This is an inequality in the penalty enforcement. I contend that offense should lose possession because a foul (regardless of what type --in this case, a "T") is still a foul and the penalty for any foul commited while on offense is loss of possession. Anything other than loss of possession would be an inequality in the rules about fouls. It would seem to me that a technical foul then becomes less severe than a regular foul commited by an offensive player. (Note: I am not making a statement of fact but rather a comparison to how we are thinking)

I really don't care how the rule is written or changed as I can see both sides of this issue in where the inequality exists.

According to your profile you have been doing this for 21 years compared to my 2 years and you may have seen a number of instances where a "t" caused huge inequities in a game!

By the way, you are right on about the pre-game dunk. Putting the ball at the disposal of the inbounder is what starts the alternating possession arrow. I thought I had read a casebook example where the jumpball still took place. If I find it, I will pass it on. Thanks!

[This message has been edited by mikesears (edited June 22, 2000).]
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 27, 2000, 02:15pm
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quote:
Originally posted by hawk:
Todd-

You stat that the on ly sport where officials can give (take, really) a point is BOXING, and we don't want to go there!

How about holding in the end zone = safety = points. Or a balk with a runner at third = 1 point. Or, perhaps, goaltending? (I think that soccer refs can now award a goal for a handball if it was obviously going into the net without the handball, but I could be wrong.) Indeed, as I recall in much earlier days of basketball, instead of shooting bonus free throws, after an alotment of fouls was exceeded, a foul resulted in one point for the fouled team,and the other team got the ball back -- creating an obvious strategy for the losing team at the end of a game.

That being said, I agree that (outside of rec leagues) awarding points is a terrible idea.



sorry Hawk, soccer refs cannot award goals under any circumstance, however they can take them away if the ball has not been put back into play
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 27, 2000, 05:42pm
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Hockey is the sport that has a provision for awarding a goal, with goalie pulled, a thrown stick to stop a goal results in an awarded goal.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 05, 2000, 03:16pm
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I think the rule is just, but for the sake of arguement. I thought that was the reason that the player control fouls no longer involved free throws is because they've already lost possession. I'm sorry but, I can't see the NF and NCAA going with two free throws with the team that had possession, "just resuming play". That's mad...The NCAA and NF keeps this game respectfull, the NBA can learn a thing or two. There's waaaay too much rule latitude. I think it's time for the NBA to start following suit.
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