Sideline: Forced OOB

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Mregor

Now that you say "continues to dribble", it OOB.

Mregor

NO, I said returns In Bounds and continues to dribble. If this is an int. dribble (or not even) we are still in the debate as to whether this is legal or not. Read the above posts....

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

All I can do is ask you to re-read my post that you quoted. If the defender is not displaced or disadvantaged, it can't be a foul on the dribbler. If the defender is legally in the path of the dribbler, it can't be a blocking foul on the defender. If the ball never touched OOB, and the "dribbler" was not dribbling when she stepped OOB, then the ball can't be called OOB.

It doesn't matter if there's one foot or one inch of space on the sideline. If all of the above statements are true (and it sounds to me from Sven's post that they are), then you have no call to make. If you disagree, you disagree.

I'm running out of pennies now. I think that really was my last 2 cents. . .

Chuck

EXACTLY!!!!

I agree with each and every thing Chuck has stated.

Clearly not a PC foul since it sounds like the contact was no more than a glancing blow.
Clearly not OOB since A1 did not have player control when A1 was OOB.

Clearly not a block since B1 was in a legal guarding position.

My ruling: That's Basketball!

[Mregor]

Originally posted by rocketpast
Most kids at this age do not know how to 'take a charge' properly by flopping to the ground. Give the girl the call!!

Great quote! Lets keep this thread going forever. Personally, I will rarely (never use the word never) call a PC foul if the defender "Flops". I've seen them slam the ground with their hands to make it sound worse too. Still won't get a call from me on a flop. I'll be glad to give them a call when deserved, but a flop will rarely get a call from me.

Mregor

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref


NO, I said returns In Bounds and continues to dribble. If this is an int. dribble (or not even) we are still in the debate as to whether this is legal or not. Read the above posts....

We are?

The rules are pretty clear, it is OOB on A1 only if A1 has player control during while OOB. During an interrupted dribble there is no player control.

The only question is whether it was an interrupted dribble or not. If so, legal play. If not, OOB violation since that implies A1 was in control of the ball.

[DrakeM]

Chuck,
In the words of that immortal song,
"If you haven't got a penny, then a half penny will do"

Here's my take,
I know this particular rule point has been argued before, but, if a dribbler purposely goes out-of bounds to avoid a defender, leaving the ball on the court, then comes back in and continues the dribble, that is ILLEGAL! Violation, B's ball. So in this case;
If B1 has legal guarding position, A1 "forces" his way through the gap, bumps into A1, goes out of bounds,
then regains dribble after coming inbounds, Violation on A1,
award B the ball.

I'm with Chuck,
If the contact by A1 did not displace B1, how can you call a PC foul? Don't do it! If the contact by B1 caused A1 to go OOB's, then call the foul on B1.

If you interpret A1 losing the ball then coming back in and continuing the dribble after re-establishing position on the floor, then no-call it and play on!

As I said before, if A1 purposely goes OOB"S then comes in and regains dribble, VIOLATION!

Chuck,
Nice posts regarding this matter. Well thought out. Great job with the incidental contact stuff.

Now, remember, I officiate on the "dark side," so tak it for what it's worth.

[rocketpast]

The horse is dead, but I have to make a correction...

I meant to say "fall to the ground", not flop. I'm not advocating for MS kids to start watching Vladi. My fault in poor selection of wording.

IMO, if the offensive player initiates contact and the defender has legal position AND the offensive player scores on a shot, continues moving the ball up the court ... the offense gained an advantage, so PC needs to be called.

[Mregor]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
[Now that you say "continues to dribble", it OOB.

Mregor [/B]

NO, I said returns In Bounds and continues to dribble. If this is an int. dribble (or not even) we are still in the debate as to whether this is legal or not. Read the above posts.... [/B][/QUOTE]

IF the player intentionally dribbles around the def player, steps OOB, comes back and continues the dribble, it's OOB, going the other way. They are trying to circimvent the superior defensive position by running around the player OOB and picking up their dribble where they left off. IMO, in this case, they never stopped their dribble. If however, there is a true interrupted dribble, the player can recover and continue without penalty. That's all I can say without seeing a play.

Mregor

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

We are?

The rules are pretty clear, it is OOB on A1 only if A1 has player control during while OOB. During an interrupted dribble there is no player control.

The only question is whether it was an interrupted dribble or not. If so, legal play. If not, OOB violation since that implies A1 was in control of the ball.

Unfortunately we have went on about 4 different tangents here and since some people continue to insist they are correct and not see the whole situation and questions I am posing this post has gone astray. I will state the sitch1 more time and what I believe we have gained and then I must check out for the day.

Sitch A1 dribbling near sideline and B1 gains legal guarding position such that A1 may not go around B1 unless he/she intentionally goes OOB to avoid contact. (i am throwing out the block/charge argument here that is a different story)

A1 performs the following actions.

A. without loosing dribble, A1 pushes the ball around B1 goes OOB around defender returns and either:

1. catches the ball
2. continues to dribble

B. Looses the ball on an interrupted dribble goes OOB around defender, returns and either 1 or 2 above.

C. Stops her dribble throws the ball over B1 goes OOB, returns in and either 1 or 2. (no need to answer this one obvious violation here)

D. B1 stops dribble, fumbles the ball, goes OOB around defender returns IB and either 1 or 2.

Keep in mind the defender has legal guarding position does not force A1 OOB (goes out intentionally) and never touches the ball.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
So what we have here is that when a defensive player gains legal guarding position abutting the sideline (no room to go around without going OOB) the ball handler may go INTENTIONALLY go out of bounds to circumvent contact, return back in bounds and recover the ball or continue the dribble.

You've got it, although I have no idea what "circumventing contact" is.

"INTENTIONALLY" is not a black and white term in regards to basketball. Do you call an inentional foul every time a team commits a foul, when you know they're just doing it to stop the clock? Do you call a T if a player intentionally goes OOB in an effort to save the ball? Do you call a T every time the backboard is slapped?

A T for intentionally leaving the floor is to prevent a player from deceiving the opponent. For example, he stands OOB at his end of the floor, while his opponent is shooting a FT, in order to decieve the opponent into not knowing he's there. I'm betting there isn't a veteran official on this forum who would call a T in this situation presented in this post.

I consider myself to be rules knowledgable but I've leanred that you can't apply those rules legalistically or literally. Start calling a T every time a player goes OOB, and you won't be officiating very long.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

You've got it, although I have no idea what "circumventing contact" is.

"INTENTIONALLY" is not a black and white term in regards to basketball. Do you call an inentional foul every time a team commits a foul, when you know they're just doing it to stop the clock? Do you call a T if a player intentionally goes OOB in an effort to save the ball? Do you call a T every time the backboard is slapped?

A T for intentionally leaving the floor is to prevent a player from deceiving the opponent. For example, he stands OOB at his end of the floor, while his opponent is shooting a FT, in order to decieve the opponent into not knowing he's there. I'm betting there isn't a veteran official on this forum who would call a T in this situation presented in this post.

I consider myself to be rules knowledgable but I've leanred that you can't apply those rules legalistically or literally. Start calling a T every time a player goes OOB, and you won't be officiating very long.

I agree 100%. There is no way I would call a T for unauthorized leaving the court here here. I am just trying to make clear that the player left the court and returned of their own free will in order to avoid the defender.

PS what I just said above is circumventing contact

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mregor


IF the player intentionally dribbles around the def player, steps OOB, comes back and continues the dribble, it's OOB, going the other way.

Intentionally has nothing to do with it. If the ball momentarily gets away from the dribbler, IT IS AN INTERRUPTED DRIBBLE.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Great, just what we all need, more Red Sox fans.

Yup,we got Chuckie,Marty,and Bay Staty!

[Mregor]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Intentionally has nothing to do with it. If the ball momentarily gets away from the dribbler, IT IS AN INTERRUPTED DRIBBLE.

Not in my opinion. Intention has everything to do with it. An interrupted dribble is when the ball bounces off a foot or the player looses it (wish I had a book here). If they intentionally bounce the the ball inbounds, step OOB, come back in, and continues the dribble, that is not an interrupted dribble. In my opinion there is no interruption and as soon as the player steps OOB it's a violation. I'm done.

Mregor

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
Sitch A1 dribbling near sideline and B1 gains legal guarding position such that A1 may not go around B1 unless he/she intentionally goes OOB to avoid contact. (i am throwing out the block/charge argument here that is a different story)

A1 performs the following actions.

A. without loosing dribble, A1 pushes the ball around B1 goes OOB around defender returns and either:

1. catches the ball
2. continues to dribble

Have to see it. Even if A1 intentionally pushes the ball around, if the ball momentarily gets away from A1, the dribble is interrupted. If interrupted, then no violation. If you determine the dribble was not interrupted, then it is OOB the minute A1 steps OOB, so you never get to see 1 and 2. This is important, because some may think that the subsequent retrieval of the ball determines whether or not the dribble is interrupted - it does not. that determination is made the moment the dribble escapes the dribbler, IMO.

B. Looses the ball on an interrupted dribble goes OOB around defender, returns and either 1 or 2 above.

No violation - interrupted dribble.

C. Stops her dribble throws the ball over B1 goes OOB, returns in and either 1 or 2. (no need to answer this one obvious violation here)

It is truly and obviously a double dribble!

D. B1 stops dribble, fumbles the ball, goes OOB around defender returns IB and either 1 or 2.

If A1 fumbled, A1 was not in control and also had already stopped the dribble. the dribble rule cannot apply here, because there is no dribble, just a fumble. If they pick it up, play on. If they dribble again, you have a double dribble, as with any othe fumble.

Keep in mind the defender has legal guarding position does not force A1 OOB (goes out intentionally) and never touches the ball. [/B]

I agree with bballref that you don't call anything on numerous basketball related reasons for going OOB w/o the ball in your hand or on the dribble. The save was probably the best example. The OOB rule is indeed intended to prevent unsporting behavior. I would not characterize this as an unsporting move, just a player trying to keep going and avoid contact at the same time.

MTD was right, we just don't get enough interesting calls these days. Doesn't anybody have something controversial to discuss?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by DrakeM
Here's my take,
I know this particular rule point has been argued before, but, if a dribbler purposely goes out-of bounds to avoid a defender, leaving the ball on the court, then comes back in and continues the dribble, that is ILLEGAL! Violation, B's ball. So in this case;
If B1 has legal guarding position, A1 "forces" his way through the gap, bumps into A1, goes out of bounds,
then regains dribble after coming inbounds, Violation on A1,
award B the ball.

Based on what rule reference, Drake.

Originally posted by Mregor

Not in my opinion. Intention has everything to do with it. An interrupted dribble is when the ball bounces off a foot or the player looses it (wish I had a book here). If they intentionally bounce the the ball inbounds, step OOB, come back in, and continues the dribble, that is not an interrupted dribble. In my opinion there is no interruption and as soon as the player steps OOB it's a violation. I'm done.

Mregor

Sorry Rog, but the rule book disagrees with your opinion.

4-15-5
An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

Note that the words "intentional" and "accidental" are not included. The simple fact is that if the ball has momentarily gotten away from the player. Therefore, it is an interrupted dribble, no matter whether intenional or not.