Minn/Mich -- Block-Charge

Tim C · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 01, 2003, 04:18pm

WOW,

I have now seen it all.

Minnesota/Michagan

A1 and B1 collide in the perfect "is it a block or is it a charge situation". Two whistles. From two different officials.

After watching the replay and discussing it:

DOUBLE FOUL!

Never, have I seen this in my life.

ChuckElias · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 01, 2003, 05:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim C
After watching the replay and discussing it:

DOUBLE FOUL!

Tim, are you saying that the officials went to replay to determine if it was a block or charge? I don't really understand what happened in the situation. Can you explain a little more?

Chuck

BigJoe · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 01, 2003, 05:15pm

I was watching this game but the phone rang and just caught the inbounds after the call. My son said that one ref called a block and one a charge so they ruled a double foul and went to the arrow. They didn't show the replay again so that is all I know. I wish I could have saw it, though. That is one problem with trying to "sell" your call which leads to these types of problems on a block/charge. In a loud gym (which The Barn called Williams Arena certainly is unless the Gophers are getting blown out) you can't hear the other whistle blow. Both officials make their signal, what do you do? I'm not sure a double foul is possible? But obviously it is. If you think about it, what other recourse did they have? I'll be interested in hearing from college officials on this one.

Mike Burns · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 01, 2003, 05:29pm

Were they watching the replay to determine if one official had the call before the other? I don't see how replay comes into this.?.?

A fellow official was telling us about a D3 game in which he and a partner had a Blarge. They had to go with a double foul also. Might do us all well to remember to hold our preliminary signal until we know what we got.

Mark Dexter · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 01, 2003, 06:50pm

While I agree that calling a double foul on a "blarge" is generally the wrong call (per the definitions of blocking/charging fouls and legal guarding position), in NCAA, isn't there a ruling that if each ref signals separately, you go with the double foul? (I know I've heard this before - just can't find the reference.)

Tim C · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 01, 2003, 07:36pm

This is HOW it happened:

Tough, tough block charge opportunity.

Trail looking from rear has charge, lead is located at location where play is coming right at him has block.

Two whistles at the same instant.

Both officials give their own conflicting signal.

All stops.

Officials conference (including third official).

Heads bob, antimated conversation bewix the two calling officials.

THEN ALL THREE OFFICIALS GO TO TABLE:

AND YES, they watch the replays on the monitor. Make that more clear . . . THEY watched the play several times.

Referee then calls coahes together announces a double foul . . . and they go to the arrow.

I have NEVER seen this before. NEVER.

Tee

TriggerMN · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 01, 2003, 09:28pm

I don't know if this is the proper thing to do in NCAA, but it IS the correct thing to to in NFHS. It's in the case book somewhere; I read it last year. If one has block, the other has charge, and neither will budge, by rule it's a double foul, and you go to the arrow.

This happened in the Iowa State-Michigan State regional final a couple of years back. One official called a charge on Iowa State, the other called a block on Michigan State. Neither official would budge. However, the third official came over and basically told them to make a decision one way or the other. Finally, the charge was called on ISU's Marcus Fizer, fouling him out of the game. Soon afterward, Larry Eustachy got dinged twice and tossed, and MSU had the win at the Palace to advance to the final four, which they won.

Jurassic Referee · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 01, 2003, 09:29pm

Tee,I checked out the NCAA rules on line. The URL is below. Click on "basketball rules" (it's a PDF file) and read Rule 6-3-1AR4. That basically says that they HAVE to call the double foul,and then go to the AP and reset the shot clock.There's also a clock reset whether the foul on the offensive player is called a charge(without the ball) or a player control foul(with the ball).I don't have a clue what they could be looking at on the replay,unless a made basket was involved.I'm guessing, but this may be it.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules.html

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 01, 2003, 10:44pm

I have an intense dislike of blarge call, either the defender has obtained(NFHS)/established(NCAA) a legal guarding position or the defender has NOT obtained/established a legal guarding position. To increase the probability of NOT having blarge, a good pregame helps in determining who takes the call in a double whistle situation.

BktBallRef · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 01, 2003, 11:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TriggerMN
This happened in the Iowa State-Michigan State regional final a couple of years back. One official called a charge on Iowa State, the other called a block on Michigan State. Neither official would budge. However, the third official came over and basically told them to make a decision one way or the other. Finally, the charge was called on ISU's Marcus Fizer, fouling him out of the game. Soon afterward, Larry Eustachy got dinged twice and tossed, and MSU had the win at the Palace to advance to the final four, which they won.

That's not true. You're correct that neither one would budge but the referee, Curtis Shaw, came in and made the other two officials call a double foul. It was Fizer's 5th foul but a double foul was called.

The center official had a block, which was the correct call.

Tim C · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 01, 2003, 11:12pm

No bucket . . . I think just an informational review.

I am a little dismayed. I am from the school that says the defender either was in position or NOT . . . I think it was a cop out call, but heck, I am no longer working "bog boy ball".

Bests,

Tee

Nevadaref · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 02, 2003, 06:26am

4.19.7 C
In NFHS it is a double foul and the basket counts if made.

Jim Weiler · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 02, 2003, 12:55pm

I don't know why Phil Bova went to the monitor, unless he was trying to figure a way to determine whether his or his partner's call was more correct. I do know that there is a process specified in men's officiating that says in that situation you go to the double foul. In contrast, the women's NCAA process is to determine who was primary -(in that play it was trail, in my opinion, although center probably also had a good look - and also had his fist up with no prelimary signal)- and go with the primary official's call.

Brad · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 02, 2003, 01:17pm

By rule, if two officials signal opposite fouls on a block/charge it is a double foul under NFHS and NCAA rules.

I had a game a few weeks ago where we did pregame that officials should yield to the primary official's calling area, but that didn't stop my partner from signaling an offensive foul that wasn't when I had a double whistle.

We didn't have a double foul because I hadn't yet signaled. Instead, we simply got the call wrong!

TriggerMN · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 02, 2003, 02:24pm

I had to officiate yesterday afternoon and didn't get a chance to see this game. Phil Bova officiated it??? He had just officiated the Minnesota-Michigan game in Ann Arbor a couple of weeks ago! I find it strange that the Big 10 would schedule the same official to do the same two teams only days apart. Of course, I think he's the head of officials for the Big 10. I don't know who the assignor is though. Anyone else have these details?