Make the call

[tref]

A1 on a fastbreak tableside at the FT line extended with no defender in front of him is still dribbling, about two strides from gathering. At the same time A2 on the opposite side of the frontcourt at the 3 pt line is running slow to hold off B1 from making a play. Frustrated B1 (down by 20 late in the 2nd half) shoves the much smaller A2 in the back & displaced him about 2 feet.
How would you handle this, by rule?
And, do we have any options?

[Adam]

By rule: Intentional foul, no basket. A2 shoots two shots.

Two strides is a little much to hold off on this, but some would obviously say to hold your whistle a second to sell counting the basket while calling the foul. I don't think I could justify it.

OTOH, I'd probably be paying so close attention to the foul that I'd lose track of when the gather began, and if A1 even looked like he was gathering, I'd give the benefit of the doubt to A and count the basket.

[Camron Rust]

There is a case case play where there is an obvious breakaway when the defensive coach says something to earn a technical foul. The ruling is to delay the whistle until the layup is attempted, count the basket (if it goes), and then call the T. I could see extending the concept to this play and to delay the whistle until the shooter has started the shooting motion....then count the shot and call the intentional foul.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is a case case play where there is an obvious breakaway when the defensive coach says something to earn a technical foul.

That's 10.4.1 F, and I agree with Camron. I say this applies to tref's sitch. Hold the whistle until the shot is released, and call the foul. It's unfair to penalize the offense by blowing the play dead on an obvious scoring opportunity.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

That's 10.4.1 F.

10.4.1 SITUATION F: A1 is driving toward the basket for an apparent goal when
the official, while trailing the play advancing in the direction in which the ball is
being advanced, is cursed by the head coach or bench personnel of Team B. How
should the official handle this situation? RULING: The official shall withhold blowing
the whistle until A1 has either made or missed the shot. The official shall then
sound the whistle and assess the Team B head coach or bench personnel with a
technical foul. If the official judges the act to be flagrant, the offender shall be
ejected. If A’s coach or bench personnel was the offender, the whistle shall be
sounded immediately when the unsporting act occurs. (10-4-1a)

[tref]

For the record, I handled it like Snaqs suggested. My partner took Camron & bainsey stance. When the play occurred the delayed unsporting technical rule came to mind before I called the intentional personal. But a technical is not an intentional personal. As I originally stated A1 was still dribbling & the shove by B1 was so over the top I couldn't see waiting to count the basket then coming back to call an INT as an option. Those who would delay the whistle, rules reference please...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

For the record, I handled it like Snaqs suggested. My partner took Camron & bainsey stance. When the play occurred the delayed unsporting technical rule came to mind before I called the intentional personal. But a technical is not an intentional personal. As I originally stated A1 was still dribbling & the shove by B1 was so over the top I couldn't see waiting to count the basket then coming back to call an INT as an option. Those who would delay the whistle, rules reference please...

The reference is 10.4.1F. There is NOTHING in the rule book to support this case. But the case give the philosophy of the NFHS that egregious infractions that occur when an obvious score is about to occur should be delayed until the shot is taken such that the act is maximally penalized and/or that the scoring team is not disadvantaged unfairly.

I believe there is also a case for a player deliberately leaving the court on such a situation. IIRC, the NFHS also ruled that the violation call be delayed until the bucket is scored.

Another case of a delayed violation...FT lane violations by the defense. A bit different, but still an example of waiting to address a violation.

We have to use the concepts presented by the cases we have to rule on the actions in a game. We really don't want a casebook with EVERYTHING spelled out as some seem to demand. That would be unimaginably large.

[tref]

Excellent points Cameron. I understand the delay for an unsporting technical & FT violations, but I fail to see how that relates to live ball contact.
Are there any caseplays that support a delayed whistle for illegal contact?

If B1 would've hit (flagrant) A2 instead of shoving him (intentional) would you delay that as well?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

Excellent points Cameron. I understand the delay for an unsporting technical & FT violations, but I fail to see how that relates to live ball contact.
Are there any caseplays that support a delayed whistle for illegal contact?

If B1 would've hit (flagrant) A2 instead of shoving him (intentional) would you delay that as well?

There is no support to delay calling an intentional personal foul. The case play for an unsporting technical is specific to unsporting conduct/behavior.

To me this would be no different than any other personal foul away from the ball. You need to determine (with help from your crew if necessary) if the habitual shooting motion had started.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tref

A1 on a fastbreak tableside at the FT line extended with no defender in front of him is still dribbling, about two strides from gathering. At the same time A2 on the opposite side of the frontcourt at the 3 pt line is running slow to hold off B1 from making a play. Frustrated B1 (down by 20 late in the 2nd half) shoves the much smaller A2 in the back & displaced him about 2 feet.
How would you handle this, by rule?
And, do we have any options?

I doubt a player at the FT line extended is two strides from beginning his shpooting motion. If you can hold the whistle a split second while seeing the whole play, you can count the basket and award the INT. I think this is a HTBT in order to know what the proper call is.

Originally Posted by bainsey

That's 10.4.1 F, and I agree with Camrom. I say this applies to tref's sitch. Hold the whistle until the shot is released, and call the foul.

You don't have to wait "until the shot is released." As soon as A1 picks up his dribble, he's in the act of shooting. That's all you need.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I doubt a player at the FT line extended is two strides from beginning his shpooting motion.

You should've seen the caliber of ball I was working! Bad basketball
I understand the HTBT thing, but the play happened just as I described.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tref

You should've seen the caliber of ball I was working! Bad basketball
I understand the HTBT thing, but the play happened just as I described.

Fine. INT foul, no basket. Really no need for discussion, is there? I mean if we can't discuss the possibility of him being in the act, then by rules where he's at or what he's doing is of no consequence. Nothing matters but the foul.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Fine. INT foul, no basket. Really no need for discussion, is there?

Just want to make sure that what I did is correct, by rule. So if/when it happens in a game that matters, I can feel comfortable with my decision.

Thanks for everyones input!!

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The reference is 10.4.1F. There is NOTHING in the rule book to support this case. But the case give the philosophy of the NFHS that egregious infractions that occur when an obvious score is about to occur should be delayed until the shot is taken such that the act is maximally penalized and/or that the scoring team is not disadvantaged unfairly.

+1

Besides, who could have a legitimate beef with this one? The team that committed the foul? "You should have blown the play dead!"???

If your team commits such a foul at this time, there's not much of a leg to stand on, IMO.

[tref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

+1

Besides, who could have a legitimate beef with this one? The team that committed the foul? "You should have blown the play dead!"???

If your team commits such a foul at this time, there's not much of a leg to stand on, IMO.

Some coaches know the rules...