Y ou make the call!

[TriggerMN]

Team B leads 52-51 in the closing seconds, when A1 is fouled on a 2-point try as the buzzer sounds. A1 is only about a 25% free throw shooter. At this point, A1 either:

1) Obviously feigns an injury, or
2) Shows you that he has been wearing a necklace, which you have failed to notice up to this point.

Do you allow A6 to substitute for A1 and shoot the free throws deciding the game?

Part 2:
A6 has indeed substituted, makes both free throws, and wins the game for team A. Both teams run off the floor to their locker rooms. Just before the officials leave the visual confines, they are buzzed by the scorer, who notifies them that A6 had previously fouled out, and was ineligible. At this point, do you call the teams back, give a flagrant technical to A6, and allow team B two free throws? Is A6 still considered "on the court" even though there is no time remaining, and the teams are in the locker room?

Part 3: If the coach knows that A6 has fouled out, but thinks he can slip his good free throw shooter in there without anyone noticing, can he substitute A7 for A6 after the free throws, even though the game is essentially over? Does this cover him, and not allow the officials to give a flagrant technical to A6 when the scorer buzzes them, because A6 is no longer in the game?

Enjoy.

[cmathews]

in sitch 1 he shoots or it is a T if the feigning is obvious.....in my mind anyway....2 is close to if not totally an unsportsmanlike act (knowingly participating with illegal equipment) by showing you he knows it is illegal, and illegal to participate with it....the substitution, yes a T, since there is no time remaining, A7 shouldn't substitute, thereby leaving A6 in the game....maybe after all this just have A forfeit for "making a travesty" of the game

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Team B leads 52-51 in the closing seconds, when A1 is fouled on a 2-point try as the buzzer sounds. A1 is only about a 25% free throw shooter. At this point, A1 either:

1) Obviously feigns an injury, or
2) Shows you that he has been wearing a necklace, which you have failed to notice up to this point.

Do you allow A6 to substitute for A1 and shoot the free throws deciding the game?

Part 2:
A6 has indeed substituted, makes both free throws, and wins the game for team A. Both teams run off the floor to their locker rooms. Just before the officials leave the visual confines, they are buzzed by the scorer, who notifies them that A6 had previously fouled out, and was ineligible. At this point, do you call the teams back, give a flagrant technical to A6, and allow team B two free throws? Is A6 still considered "on the court" even though there is no time remaining, and the teams are in the locker room?

Part 3: If the coach knows that A6 has fouled out, but thinks he can slip his good free throw shooter in there without anyone noticing, can he substitute A7 for A6 after the free throws, even though the game is essentially over? Does this cover him, and not allow the officials to give a flagrant technical to A6 when the scorer buzzes them, because A6 is no longer in the game?

Enjoy.

1)If he feigns an injury,I'll allow a sub for him-but I'll put my suspicions in the game report.If it's jewelry,I'm gonna make A1 remove the necklace and then shoot the FT"s.Rationale is that game is NOT being held up because it's over,and I also do not want to give team A an advantage not intended by the rule.
2)If A6 does shoot the FT's and you then find out that he had previously fouled out(under R2-2-4-officials' jurisdiction),you:
(a)Nail him with a flagrant technical foul,along with indirect to his head coach.R10-3-2.
(b)cancel FT's.Correctible error as per R2-10-1(c).
(c)Bring another legal A substitute out to re-shoot the FT's--R8-2.You can't bring A1 back because he isn't eligible to come back in until the next time that the clock starts and stops again-Rule3-3-4.
3)Nope,no substitution is allowed for A6 because period(or game)is supposedly over,and substitution is not allowable until the next period starts-as per R3-3.When you need someone to shoot the substitute FT's for the correctible error,you follow R8-2 and use a legal substitute off the bench to replace A1.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 7th, 2003 at 09:11 AM]

[Blackhawk357]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
A1 is only about a 25% free throw shooter. At this point, A1 either:

1) Obviously feigns an injury, or
2) Shows you that he has been wearing a necklace, which you have failed to notice up to this point.

Do you allow A6 to substitute for A1 and shoot the free throws deciding the game?

I'm not worried about his FT %. If I think he has feigned an injury, I'll hold the coach on the bench, (if possible) get him up and he'll shoot.

If A6 enters and shoots, I'll go with JR. Ding him (ejection and, in Montana, a 1 game suspension) disallow the free throws, and make A7 shoot. If needed, you go to the other end and shoot the "T" free throws.

BTW ~ My luck here would be for the game to end in a tie, and have to play another 4 minutes with a coach in each pocket!

Blackhawk

[ChuckElias]

Ok, here's my take.

Part 1
1) If he is obviously faking, and I mean I'm 100% sure he's not hurt, then I tell him to suck it up and he stays in to shoot. This would basically require him to be laughing while telling me he's hurt, or I would have to hear a teammate tell him to fall down or something. If I am not 100% sure that he's faking, then he subs out and I write an incident report.

2) He takes off the necklace and shoots. There is no way to give a T for this.

Part 2
Game's over. Nothing you can do. Fed 10-3-2 PENALTY specifically states that this can only be penalized while it is being violated. Once the FTs are completed and the teams have left the floor, there's nothing that can be done. EXCEPT. . . you string up the scorer and write an incident report.

Interestingly, NCAA rules do not have the stipulation that it can only be penalized while being violated. I'm not sure how it would be handled at that level. Maybe they'd do it the way JR describes.

Part 3
Since the scenario is that this is the end of the game. . . unless the score is tied as a result of the FTs, the game is over and no substitutions can be made. This is irrelevant, however, since 10-3-2 is no longer being violated. So the coach no longer needs to "cover himself".

If, however, the score is tied at the end of regulation, or if there is another period to follow (maybe the 4th quarter), then the answer is yes, the coach may sub out the player that just shot the FTs and he would be "covered", as you put it. It would no longer be punishable.

Chuck

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Part 2
Game's over. Nothing you can do. Fed 10-3-2 PENALTY specifically states that this can only be penalized while it is being violated. Once the FTs are completed and the teams have left the floor, there's nothing that can be done.

Chuck,how do you define the time span "discovered while being violated"? Does that mean that as soon as the last FT goes through,you can no longer penalize it? Even if the scorer buzzes you and tells you about the disqualified shooter immediately after the last FT was over ?

I always thought that this period of "being violated" lasted until the ball was made alive again after the illegal act(not the clock starting,just the ball being made alive).

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Team B leads 52-51 in the closing seconds, when A1 is fouled on a 2-point try as the buzzer sounds. A1 is only about a 25% free throw shooter. At this point, A1 either:

1) Obviously feigns an injury, or
2) Shows you that he has been wearing a necklace, which you have failed to notice up to this point.

Do you allow A6 to substitute for A1 and shoot the free throws deciding the game?

Part 2:
A6 has indeed substituted, makes both free throws, and wins the game for team A. Both teams run off the floor to their locker rooms. Just before the officials leave the visual confines, they are buzzed by the scorer, who notifies them that A6 had previously fouled out, and was ineligible. At this point, do you call the teams back, give a flagrant technical to A6, and allow team B two free throws? Is A6 still considered "on the court" even though there is no time remaining, and the teams are in the locker room?

Part 3: If the coach knows that A6 has fouled out, but thinks he can slip his good free throw shooter in there without anyone noticing, can he substitute A7 for A6 after the free throws, even though the game is essentially over? Does this cover him, and not allow the officials to give a flagrant technical to A6 when the scorer buzzes them, because A6 is no longer in the game?

Enjoy.

Part 1, Sitch 1: I would have to be there to see the faking of the injury. However, if for whatever reason it is known that A1 is faking an injury, I quietly tell him that he has to shoot the FTs or be charged with a T for faking an injury.

Part 1, Sitch 2: Take the necklace off, then shoot the FTs.

Part 2: Letting A6 in is a mistake preventable by the officiating crew. In the end, however, I think that the responsibility lies upon the coaching staff, and I would charge team A with a flagrant technical foul. I would then have a different replacement re-shoot the FTs, then award B two shoots if necessary.

Part 3: There will not be a substitution since the buzzer has sounded to end the game. At this point, see Part 2 answer.

Juat my 2 cents...

Mike

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Chuck,how do you define the time span "discovered while being violated"?

Same way I define pornography. I know it when I see it.

Sank you, I'll be here all zee veek. Try the veal. But seriously, tho. . .

Seriously, I don't see any reasonable way you could say that the kid is violating the rule when he's halfway to the locker room already. Did he violate? Obviously. Is he violating now? Obviously not.

If it's discovered while he's still shooting the FTs, penalize it. If it's discovered after the FTs, I think you have to eat it.

Chuck

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Seriously, I don't see any reasonable way you could say that the kid is violating the rule when he's halfway to the locker room already. Did he violate? Obviously. Is he violating now? Obviously not.

If it's discovered while he's still shooting the FTs, penalize it. If it's discovered after the FTs, I think you have to eat it.

Chuck take a look at casebook play 10.3.2,which pertains to a player participating who has previously been disqualified. Note the sentence in the Ruling--"The infraction is penalized any time that it is discovered while the rule is being violated".The player's participation,and thus his continuing violation,doesn't end with the completion of the FT's.The rule is still being violated by that player as long as he is one of the 5 legal players on the floor for his team.If that player is one of the five legal players on the floor,isn't he violating right up until the time that game is over(which is when the officials leave the floor)?The player has never been substituted out,so the violation has to be continuous.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
[/B]

Part 2: Letting A6 in is a mistake preventable by the officiating crew. In the end, however, I think that the responsibility lies upon the coaching staff, and I would charge team A with a flagrant technical foul.[/B][/QUOTE]Not a flagrant team technical foul,Mike. It's charged to the player. Casebook play 10.3.2.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Part 2: Letting A6 in is a mistake preventable by the officiating crew. In the end, however, I think that the responsibility lies upon the coaching staff, and I would charge team A with a flagrant technical foul.[/B]

Not a flagrant team technical foul,Mike. It's charged to the player. Casebook play 10.3.2. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ooops, that was a spelling mistake. I don't know how I spelled "player" as t-e-a-m.

Thanks!

Mike

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Note the sentence in the Ruling--"The infraction is penalized any time that it is discovered while the rule is being violated".The player's participation,and thus his continuing violation,doesn't end with the completion of the FT's.The rule is still being violated by that player as long as he is one of the 5 legal players on the floor for his team.If that player is one of the five legal players on the floor,isn't he violating right up until the time that game is over(which is when the officials leave the floor)?

Ok, so if the players' "participation" doesn't end until the officials leave the floor, then you're going to have to T the losing team players for leaving the floor for an unauthorized reason. You're going to have to T the winning team for having too many players on the court.

I just don't see any reasonable way you can say that shooter is still violating when he and his team are halfway down the hall to the locker room. He's not participating. Did he violate the rule? Absolutely. Is he still violating? I think he clearly is not. If you can get an official interpretation that says otherwise, I'm more than happy to bang him and wipe the FTs; b/c I agree that's the FAIR thing to do. I just honestly don't think that, as the rule is written, you can penalize it in this sitch. I could obviously be wrong, tho. And as I said, I'd be happy to be wrong in this situation.

Chuck

[NICK]

This is what I would do
Sit 1- A1 will have to shoot the FT with or without the necklace, I don't care. It has no more affect on the game. Buzzer has sounded for end of game and A1 + the referees will be at the FT spot for the shots.
Sit 2 and 3 should not even happen if the scorebench personnel were on the ball and did their jobs properly.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by NICK
This is what I would do
Sit 2 and 3 should not even happen if the scorebench personnel were on the ball and did their jobs properly.

Soooooooo. . . what would you do?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Soooooooo. . . what would you do?

Don't forget that Nick is from New Zealand and uses FIBA rules,Chick.