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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 15, 2011, 05:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
The problem is you are applying delayed violations (FT violations on the defense; unsporting T's on defense during a drive to the basket) to personal fouls.

If you have a personal foul away from the ball you have to determine the status of the ball at the time of the foul. You are trying to apply the delayed violation rule to this scenario. It doesn't apply.
True. The basic idea is that NFHS allows for a delayed whistle on noncontact situations. That's a FT violation or an unsporting technical foul. For contact situations, there is no provision for delaying the whistle.
The rules book states when the ball becomes dead and when it doesn't on such.

My advice for those wondering how to handle the sitch posed by the OP is to simply stick to the rules book and penalize accordingly.
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Old Wed Jun 15, 2011, 09:09pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
True. The basic idea is that NFHS allows for a delayed whistle on noncontact situations. That's a FT violation or an unsporting technical foul. For contact situations, there is no provision for delaying the whistle.
The rules book states when the ball becomes dead and when it doesn't on such.

My advice for those wondering how to handle the sitch posed by the OP is to simply stick to the rules book and penalize accordingly.
Yup. Applying the case play for the unsporting technical foul to a play involving live ball intentional contact is a stretch. It may be a small stretch, but it's a stretch nonetheless, and one that could easily lead to an escalated situation before you decide to blow your whistle.
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Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 09:30am
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
My advice for those wondering how to handle the sitch posed by the OP is to simply stick to the rules book and penalize accordingly.
That would be the wise choice, of course.

However, as Cam has articulately pointed out, we don't have a rule or case that explicitly says to blow the whistle immediately upon contact, be it common or intentional (unless there's something I'm missing. Feel free to cite accordingly, if so.) Conversely, we are explicitly told to hold the whistle in certain technical foul or defensive violations.

So, in a nutshell, we're not told that we can, but we're not told that we can't, either. That's typically where these "I believe it should be" viewpoints come into play, when something isn't explicit. Perhaps the answer is to get something in writing (again, if it already isn't) one way or the other.
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Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 09:53am
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
That would be the wise choice, of course.

However, as Cam has articulately pointed out, we don't have a rule or case that explicitly says to blow the whistle immediately upon contact, be it common or intentional (unless there's something I'm missing. Feel free to cite accordingly, if so.) Conversely, we are explicitly told to hold the whistle in certain technical foul or defensive violations.

So, in a nutshell, we're not told that we can, but we're not told that we can't, either. That's typically where these "I believe it should be" viewpoints come into play, when something isn't explicit. Perhaps the answer is to get something in writing (again, if it already isn't) one way or the other.
Seriously? The case plays and rules don't care when the whistle blows. The ball becomes dead on contact fouls when the foul occurs. Not when the whistle blows. Without a case play directly telling you to allow the ball to remain live following a personal foul, you're on very thin ice trying to pull that off.

The rule is explicit.

And two seconds without a whistle is a long time for the player who got shoved to think you missed it and decide he needs to take care of it himself.
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Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 09:54am
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
That would be the wise choice, of course.

However, as Cam has articulately pointed out, we don't have a rule or case that explicitly says to blow the whistle immediately upon contact, be it common or intentional (unless there's something I'm missing. Feel free to cite accordingly, if so.) Conversely, we are explicitly told to hold the whistle in certain technical foul or defensive violations.

So, in a nutshell, we're not told that we can, but we're not told that we can't, either. That's typically where these "I believe it should be" viewpoints come into play, when something isn't explicit. Perhaps the answer is to get something in writing (again, if it already isn't) one way or the other.
Where have you read that you can have delayed enforcement for personal fouls?

There are situations that are explicitly designated for delayed enforcement, is a personal foul of any type included in those situations?

If you want to wait to enforce an intentional foul away from the ball until A1 takes 2 more dribbles and then gathers for his shot that's fine. But at least have the guts, when your supervisor or a coach asks, to say its your own interpretation/philosophy.

And be prepared answered what you would have done had the intentional foul occurred on A1 who then took 2 more dribbles and then gathered for his shot. Would have also delayed your whistle out of "fairness"?
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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 10:08am.
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Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 10:37am
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You can either take a narrow view of case plays only only apply them when every single detail matches the case play or you can take a broad view of the case plays and see the concepts and philosophies in them and apply them to similar situations. I view the case plays as examples of the types of calls desired expecting officials to be able to understand ideas, not an exhaustive list of the exact situations for officials that can't think to just memorize.

By all means, if you sense escalation, you can't wait...but we were not really talking about what else might happen. We're talking about what did happen and assuming that is ALL that happened.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Thu Jun 16, 2011 at 10:40am.
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Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 10:46am
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And people wonder why there's such a lack of consistency in basketball officiating. Wow. What a mess. Seems the NFHS has given the basketball officials just enough rope to hang their hat on when inventing a ruling on this case. I hate the invent-a-rule crowd. I agree you don't need caseplays to cover every situation ... but if you're going to write a caseplay that's not supported by rule - PLEASE change the rule.
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Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 11:25am
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You can either take a narrow view of case plays only only apply them when every single detail matches the case play or you can take a broad view of the case plays and see the concepts and philosophies in them and apply them to similar situations. I view the case plays as examples of the types of calls desired expecting officials to be able to understand ideas, not an exhaustive list of the exact situations for officials that can't think to just memorize.

By all means, if you sense escalation, you can't wait...but we were not really talking about what else might happen. We're talking about what did happen and assuming that is ALL that happened.
Fair enough, but the lack of a case play saying we can delay a call for any live ball contact foul leaves me unable to take that same step.
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Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 11:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snaqwells
The rule is explicit.
Citation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder
And people wonder why there's such a lack of consistency in basketball officiating. Wow. What a mess. Seems the NFHS has given the basketball officials just enough rope to hang their hat on when inventing a ruling on this case. I hate the invent-a-rule crowd. I agree you don't need caseplays to cover every situation ... but if you're going to write a caseplay that's not supported by rule - PLEASE change the rule.
I wouldn't say this is a mess, but it certainly does expose a messy potential.

Rules are, in a nutshell, agreements. That is, it's been agreed that this is the way we're going to play, and how we're going to handle these defined situations. In this case, it's not that a rule needs to be changed, it's the penalty that needs to be more clearly defined. Otherwise, these disagreements will continue.
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Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 11:56am
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Citation?


I wouldn't say this is a mess, but it certainly does expose a messy potential.

Rules are, in a nutshell, agreements. That is, it's been agreed that this is the way we're going to play, and how we're going to handle these defined situations. In this case, it's not that a rule needs to be changed, it's the penalty that needs to be more clearly defined. Otherwise, these disagreements will continue.
There's nothing to disagree with here.

The rule says when the ball becomes dead. There's your citation. There is nothing in the book that says we can ignore that particular rule just because we think it's more fair to do so. The penalty is clearly defined, you just don't think it's enough.

The case play Camron is using applies to unsporting behavior, not contact.
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Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 12:43pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
There's nothing to disagree with here.

The rule says when the ball becomes dead. There's your citation. There is nothing in the book that says we can ignore that particular rule just because we think it's more fair to do so. The penalty is clearly defined, you just don't think it's enough.

The case play Camron is using applies to unsporting behavior, not contact.
Except, there is no rule to support even the unsporting behavior case. By rule, the ball became dead at the time of the unsporting behavior. But yet, the case plays says to wait. But with what rule to support it? None. So, by your standard, even that case is incorrect and shouldn't be followed.
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Old Thu Jun 16, 2011, 12:46pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
The rule says when the ball becomes dead. There's your citation.
That's not a citation, and you know it. Rule, section, article, sir.
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