Delay of Game? (Kansas vs. Texas)

[zebraman]

I was watching the Kansas vs. Texas game on ESPN last night and saw a weird sitch. Kansas player shoots a three and drains it with a couple minutes to go in the game. After the ball goes through, another Kansas player grabs the ball after the made basket and lays it in (in his excitement I guess...he did it real fast). No points obviously, but doesn't that warrant at least a delay warning? I believe Texas called a time-out right after that. The officials just ignored the non-counting lay-up during the brief dead ball period. Would any of you NCAA refs have called a delay of game or anything else?. What about NFHS refs?

Thanks,

Z

P.S. I also saw a high dribble called as a carry in that game. Yikes.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by zebraman
...with a couple minutes to go in the game. - The officials just ignored the non-counting lay-up during the brief dead ball period. Would any of you NCAA refs have called a delay of game or anything else?. What about NFHS refs?

I'm sure thay just missed it as I would.

[ChuckElias]

I didn't see the dead ball lay-up. But I did see the "carry" call. My response was the same as yours. Yikes. Not only was it not a carry, but it wasn't even a high dribble, as the ball wasn't even in contact with his hand.

I also saw a couple of instances where the Lead official reached across the lane to call a foul on the other side of the basket. One was probably a good call (they didn't show the replay), but the other was a clean block from behind. Lead called a foul. If the Lead is going to reach across the lane to make those calls, why do we have a Center official? Lead should leave it alone, unless it's an "oh my God" foul.

Chuck

[devdog69]

I was watching in the local watering hole after my games last night and when they called the "carry", I said "I can't believe they just called that". Some guy sitting near me that I didn't know got all defensive and said the ball was clear above his head, I didn't argue with the idiot.

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I didn't see the dead ball lay-up. But I did see the "carry" call. My response was the same as yours. Yikes. Not only was it not a carry, but it wasn't even a high dribble, as the ball wasn't even in contact with his hand.

I also saw a couple of instances where the Lead official reached across the lane to call a foul on the other side of the basket. One was probably a good call (they didn't show the replay), but the other was a clean block from behind. Lead called a foul. If the Lead is going to reach across the lane to make those calls, why do we have a Center official? Lead should leave it alone, unless it's an "oh my God" foul.

Chuck

I couldn't believe that carry call either. And as far as the lay up, in that situation I would have let it go.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Why is it that fans/coaches/players (and the official that called the carry) don't know the rules?

Is our enforcement that inconsistent? Is it poor sports announcers?

At the higher levels of basketball there is obviously selective enforcement of block/charge, fouls on the shooter, violations, etc. Absolutely, the player's abilities are much greater than at a high school game but the stuff (knockabout contact, dribbling violations, traveling) that is let go in a D1 college game would be atrocious/heinous in a HS game. Is this latitude for more capable players what causes the misunderstanding for the general observer?

It was a terrible carry call: blow the whistle, give an exagerated signal, turn your head and never look back... cause you just screwed the pooch.

[Adam]

If they called that a carry last night, no wonder coach got mad at me for not calling a carry last night on a high dribble.
As for coaches not knowing the rules. I actually had a coach tell me twice that the other team was traveling on a throw-in. I decided not to embarrass him with a rules clinic, but I wasn't far from giving him an explanation.

[DrC.]

People do not know the rules because the so call experts that announce the games do not know them Example, Knicks game the other night, (yea I know - why was I watching the Knicks, it must have been halftime of the ESPN College game), anyway, I think it was Nick Van Essel. He gets the ball and falls down, but keeps his dribble going. He then passed the ball. The knick announcer tells everyone it wasn't travelling because he fell down holding the ball and never tried to get up! It wasn't travelling because he kept the dribble going (Curly)

[Ridge Wiz]

I also saw a couple of instances where the Lead official reached across the lane to call a foul on the other side of the basket. One was probably a good call (they didn't show the replay), but the other was a clean block from behind. Lead called a foul. If the Lead is going to reach across the lane to make those calls, why do we have a Center official? Lead should leave it alone, unless it's an "oh my God" foul.

Re: Chuck,
Our supervisor recently reminded us that we have some decent shot blockers in HS so we should take the time to let the play to develop. Let the shot block or foul occur then blow the whistle if necessary. Don’t always assume B1’s attempt to block a shot will be a foul.

[canuckrefguy]

Clinicians always say....anticipate the play but not the foul....

[TriggerMN]

The three officials who did last night's game were Steve Welmer, Tom O'Neill, and Ted Hillary. All three are VERY good officials, and all have worked in the Final Four. O'Neill called the one foul on the other side of the lane. It was soon after both coaches were vehemently complaining to the officials about the lack of calls with all the contact. O'Neill looked screened on TV, but let's face it, even the greats don't get every one right.

O'Neill also called the carry at the end of the game. I saw it a couple of times on replay, but didn't get the angle O'Neill did. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one. Rick Barnes, the Texas coach, didn't seem to complain.

I think Welmer was on the baseline when the KU player grabbed the ball after the trey and layed it in. I agree with you, I was surprised there wasn't a delay of game in that situation. However, if there had been one earlier in the game, I can understand how he wouldn't have called that one, and I'll be willing to bet that his director of officials would have patted him on the back for that no-call, considering the situation.

However, that is not Welmer's call, period. As lead, his eyes remain on the players in the lane, not the ball. IIRC, the ball was rebounded and laid in w/o ever touching the ground. Welmer would have no way of knowing (other than crowd noise, I suppose) if the 3-point attempt was good, if he was doing his job.

Again, these three guys do a flat-out terrific job 99.99% of the time, and until one of their directors or assignors comes out and says they screwed up, I'm willing to back them all the way.

[Jay R]

To add to the announcers idiotic statements. In the Timberwolves-Wizards game the other night. Kevin Garnett threw the ball off a Wizard player who was standing out of bounds. The announcer said: "Garnett was the last one to touch the ball before it went out of bounds, it should be the Wizards ball. He said the refs missed that one. Unbelievable!

[zebraman]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
The three officials who did last night's game were Steve Welmer, Tom O'Neill, and Ted Hillary. All three are VERY good officials, and all have worked in the Final Four. O'Neill also called the carry at the end of the game. I saw it a couple of times on replay, but didn't get the angle O'Neill did. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one. Rick Barnes, the Texas coach, didn't seem to complain.

I'm sure they are all accomplished officials. For now I'll assume that the official thought that the ball was carried (thought he saw something that he didn't) and not that he thinks a high dribble or "mis-timed" dribble is a carry. I saw several angles of that "carry" and it was it most certainly was not even close to a carry (even though Vitale thought it was a carry because he has no clue about the rules despite years as a college coach) It was a huge play in the game and it surprised me that the D-1 ref kicked it. The coach may not have *****ed, but the player sure did because he knew that he did not even come close to a carry. Our local official's association has several guys who do D-3, D-2, and D-1 officiating. It has been my impression that their rule knowledge is actually weaker than our top-rated high school officials. I get the feeling that once they reach the college ranks, they spend all their time working on how they look and quit studying the books.

Z

[Adam]

Originally posted by Jay R
To add to the announcers idiotic statements. In the Timberwolves-Wizards game the other night. Kevin Garnett threw the ball off a Wizard player who was standing out of bounds. The announcer said: "Garnett was the last one to touch the ball before it went out of bounds, it should be the Wizards ball. He said the refs missed that one. Unbelievable!

Long before I reffed, I remember seeing a spot on TV where they showed an NBA situation and asked the audience what the correct call was. I think it was called, "You make the call." Anyway, they had just this situation, and the explanation was the same as the announcers. That a player standing out of bounds would not count as touching the ball, that he is considered the same as the bleachers. Therefore, the last player to touch the ball before it touches a player standing out of bounds would be responsible. IOW, according to that, the announcer was right. Could this be a quirky NBA rule?

Snaqs (doesn't know NBA rules that well)

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Why is it that fans/coaches/players (and the official that called the carry) don't know the rules?

I think he had a bad angle on that call and it looked ugly. I have done that, and I didn't like what I saw on tape either.