Multiple Fouls?

[gduckworth]

I am not an official "official" - I just take my turn once a week to officiate in an adult rec league. The league is supposed to be playing by NFHS rules - but with all of us "volunteer" officials, it gets kind of crazy.

I am curious how others would have handled the following situation that occurrred last week in a game:

Team A is ahead by a few points with just a few seconds left in the game. Both teams are in the bonus (10 team fouls a piece). Coming out of a time out, Team B captain (B1) tells me that his team is going to be trying to foul as soon as Team A throws the ball into play.

Question 1: how do you respond to the player or coach that tells you they are going to foul? do you need to respond?

Team A throws the ball in. B1 fouls A1 that received the in-bounds pass. I have a foul on B1. At the same time that I have a foul on B1, my partner has called a foul on B2, who pretty much tackled A2 away from the ball. It looked like there were other fouls by Team B going on as well.

My partner and I believe we have multiple fouls, we clear the lane, A1 shoots 2 free throws, and then we line everyone up for A2 to shoot 2 more free throws.

Well, B1 is irrate that we called 2 fouls. I told him he should have told his team not to foul everyone on the court - go for one next time rather than five.

Question 2: did we get the call right, just going on what I explained above?

[firedoc]

Multiple fouls are fouls by more than one player on the same opponent at approximately the same time. This is clearly not what you describe. In your post you describe separate fouls on deifferent players. In this situation the officials must decide which foul came first and penalize that. The other foul, unless flagrant, should be ignored.

By the way, anyone who calls a multiple foul needs to have psychiatric care...personally I have never called one and have never seen one called by any partners I have worked with. In addition, I have never spoken to anyone who has ever called one.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by gduckworth
I am not an official "official" - I just take my turn once a week to officiate in an adult rec league. The league is supposed to be playing by NFHS rules - but with all of us "volunteer" officials, it gets kind of crazy.

I am curious how others would have handled the following situation that occurrred last week in a game:

Team A is ahead by a few points with just a few seconds left in the game. Both teams are in the bonus (10 team fouls a piece). Coming out of a time out, Team B captain (B1) tells me that his team is going to be trying to foul as soon as Team A throws the ball into play.

Question 1: how do you respond to the player or coach that tells you they are going to foul? do you need to respond?

Team A throws the ball in. B1 fouls A1 that received the in-bounds pass. I have a foul on B1. At the same time that I have a foul on B1, my partner has called a foul on B2, who pretty much tackled A2 away from the ball. It looked like there were other fouls by Team B going on as well.

My partner and I believe we have multiple fouls, we clear the lane, A1 shoots 2 free throws, and then we line everyone up for A2 to shoot 2 more free throws.

Well, B1 is irrate that we called 2 fouls. I told him he should have told his team not to foul everyone on the court - go for one next time rather than five.

Question 2: did we get the call right, just going on what I explained above?

You are partially correct when you talk about multiple fouls. What you really had was a false multiple foul. You were also correct in charging both fouls as intentional fouls even if B1's foul would have been a common foul under normal circumstances. Since Team B Captain told you that they intended to commit a foul, then the foul by B1 must be considered an intentional foul.

[pizanno]

Q #1: I usually tell them to go for the ball. But don't be so quick to whistle said foul. What if they STEAL the ball? Anticipate the play, not the call.

Otherwise, you might have to call an intentional, as Mark points out.

Q #2: For rec ball, you did the right thing. You can't let someone get away with an unpenalized foul. You'll 'never' see this called at the 'higher' levels.

...good job.

Illinois/Purdue game the other. Did anyone see the game? I turned the game on at one point(don't remember when in the game) and the announcers were trying to sort out a call that was made. They made reference to a double foul, but then they showed the play(I assume it was the play they were talking about) which seemed to be a block/charge call with another Illinois player right next to the Purdue player with the ball. Just wondering if anyone saw this play and knows what call was made.

[bigwhistle]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[BYou are partially correct when you talk about multiple fouls. What you really had was a false multiple foul. You were also correct in charging both fouls as intentional fouls even if B1's foul would have been a common foul under normal circumstances. Since Team B Captain told you that they intended to commit a foul, then the foul by B1 must be considered an intentional foul. [/B]

So I guess MTD, that if B1 swats and nearly steals the ball but gets some arm that you are going to call an intentional foul? Let us hope not. Even though you were notified that they planned to foul, this would be a play on the ball and a regular foul.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Jerry Blum
Illinois/Purdue game the other. Did anyone see the game? I turned the game on at one point(don't remember when in the game) and the announcers were trying to sort out a call that was made. They made reference to a double foul, but then they showed the play(I assume it was the play they were talking about) which seemed to be a block/charge call with another Illinois player right next to the Purdue player with the ball. Just wondering if anyone saw this play and knows what call was made.

Both refs whistled a foul, both signalled, and the signals conflicted. I am not the NCAA expert here, but I recall seeing a thread that said that under NCAA men's rules, it must be a double foul Once both refs have signaled, they cannot go with one call over the other. I felt good because the announcers were blasting the refs for the call, not knowing why it was made that way. What they should have been doing was talking about who should have had the signal, because once the signals were made, they couldn't change their calls.

BTW, it was a block on the Illinois player, and I am an Illinois fan. I think it was Valentine who had the charge call from up top, but the baseline ref had the better angle and it was clearly a block from that view on replay. Player set his feet and then leaned over into the path of the ball handler as he jumped through the double team. I think that you could see the defender set his feet from up top, but you could not see clearly what caused the contact. Keady was visibly mad, and Self was ok with the call - another good indication as to who made out on the deal!

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Both refs whistled a foul, both signalled, and the signals conflicted. I am not the NCAA expert here, but I recall seeing a thread that said that under NCAA men's rules, it must be a double foul Once both refs have signaled, they cannot go with one call over the other. I felt good because the announcers were blasting the refs for the call, not knowing why it was made that way. What they should have been doing was talking about who should have had the signal, because once the signals were made, they couldn't change their calls.

BTW, it was a block on the Illinois player, and I am an Illinois fan. I think it was Valentine who had the charge call from up top, but the baseline ref had the better angle and it was clearly a block from that view on replay. Player set his feet and then leaned over into the path of the ball handler as he jumped through the double team. I think that you could see the defender set his feet from up top, but you could not see clearly what caused the contact. Keady was visibly mad, and Self was ok with the call - another good indication as to who made out on the deal!

That was the only thing I thought could have happened but like I said I only caught the tail end of the call and the discussion about it. Thanks.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

You are partially correct when you talk about multiple fouls. What you really had was a false multiple foul. You were also correct in charging both fouls as intentional fouls even if B1's foul would have been a common foul under normal circumstances. Since Team B Captain told you that they intended to commit a foul, then the foul by B1 must be considered an intentional foul.

It not what they say they are going to do, it's what they do. I never call it intentional because they infrom me. For all I know, they changed their mind and went for the ball but still got a little arm.

If we based it on what they said, we would have to call an intentional foul is they tried to foul but missed.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

It not what they say they are going to do, it's what they do. I never call it intentional because they infrom me. For all I know, they changed their mind and went for the ball but still got a little arm.

If we based it on what they said, we would have to call an intentional foul is they tried to foul but missed.

The definition of intentional foul is the same in both the NFHS and NCAA rules books. Using the NFHS rules reference:

NFHS R4-S19-A3: An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, to neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position, contact away from the ball or when not playing the ball. It may or may not be premeditated and is not based on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

When a player tells me that he is going to commit a foul and then immediately fouls his opponent, his act is a classic example of a premeditated act. The foul on the ball in the original situation is an intentional foul. To not treat it as an intentional foul deprives Team A's opponent of two free throws and possesion of the ball for a throw-in which they are entitled by the rules.

[just another ref]

When a player tells me that he is going to commit a foul and then immediately fouls his opponent, his act is a classic example of a premeditated act.

Where do you draw the line on this call? What if 2 different players from team A had come out? A1: We're gonna foul as soon as they get the ball inbounds. A2: No, we're not, we're gonna very aggressively go for a steal and if we foul we can't help it. A1: (shrug) What do you do now? Call it intentional if on A1 but not on A2? I don't think that you can go by what the players say.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by just another ref

Where do you draw the line on this call? What if 2 different players from team A had come out? A1: We're gonna foul as soon as they get the ball inbounds. A2: No, we're not, we're gonna very aggressively go for a steal and if we foul we can't help it. A1: (shrug) What do you do now? Call it intentional if on A1 but not on A2? I don't think that you can go by what the players say.

What line is there to draw? A1 stated to the official that he was going to foul B1 immediately. If A1 then fouls B1 immediately, that is an intentional foul. Either you make the correct call (intentional foul) or you do not nake the correct foul (common foul). There is nothing difficult about the situation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]

A1 stated to the official that he was going to foul B1 immediately. If A1 then fouls B1 immediately, that is an intentional foul. [/B][/QUOTE]The statement above is technically correct.When "intentional fouls" were a POE in 2000/2001,the POE was written to say-Quote-Acts that must be deemed intentional include:-when coach/player says "watch,we're going to foul"-Unquote.Those are the exact words from the written POE that year. A literal translation of that backs up Mark.In the real world however,most rules interpreters tell their officials to call it exactly the way that Camron said.If they go for the ball and make it look good,call it a common foul.We tell our officials not to call these plays with their ears,but with their eyes.We also notified the coaches in our area back then that it wouldn't be too smart to stand by the bench and holler "foul,foul".Most of 'em now use a code word of some type when they want to foul someone quickly in the last minute.Naturally,if their players don't go for the ball and just grab someone,we do want our officials to call the intentional foul.As far as I know,most areas seem to follow those general principles.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
... that it wouldn't be too smart to stand by the bench and holler "foul,foul".Most of 'em now use a code word

The one I like around here is, "Bananas, bananas"

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

The one I like around here is, "Bananas, bananas"

True story,Juulie. We have a pre-season meeting with the high school coaches every year,where we go over new rules,answer questions,etc. We told the coaches about the POE that year,how it was worded,and that it might be a good idea for them to use a code word.Anyway,I've got a game a coupla weeks later with one of the veteran coaches,who I know real well(probably too well),when this type of situation came up.I happened to be right in front of his bench when it did.He got right up behind me and practically screams in my ear-"chicken,chicken".Then he whispers to me-"That means foul;my kid's ain't too bright".Thank goodness it was my partner's call.I was laughing too hard to make one.