Situations from last night.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by mick
Unfortunately, I have always learned more thoroughly by correcting my mistakes, than I have learned by being correct. Embarassment and self-deprecation are pretty good teachers.

Good judgment comes from experience.

Experience copmes from bad judgment.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Jerry Blum
From the responses on the the first situation I'm still not clear on exactly what is the correct way to handle this. Since our game was a blow out we discussed the issue with the coaches and neither had a problem with the switching of the jerseys so we went on without any problem.

If the jersey becomes unusable (blood, torn, etc.) It may always be changed with any other jersey (previously used or not) without penalty.

I think that we really should have shot two with the lane cleared whether the foul happened before or after the horn, because A1 was an airborne shooter the whole time. Not sure if I read this on the board or in the rule book so I don't have a reference but in a similar situation where the shot is released, horn sounds and then A1(shooter) gets fouled after the horn before he returns to the floor we would still call that foul correct? Isn't this the same type of situation except that the ball was released after the horn?

I must disagree here.

In the case you reference, the player had released the ball before the horn, so the ball actually remains live after the horn until the try ends. Also, fouls involving an airborne shooter apply until the shooter lands. So, any foul on the airborne shooter is penalized.

However, in the case at hand, an airborne shooter is a player who has released a try. While a try had started, it ended when the ball be came dead by the exipration of time with the ball still in the shooters hands. The player never becomes an airborne shooter. Any foul after the horn, is just that, a foul after the horn...to be ignored unless intentional or flagrant.

[twoblindrefs]

#1, allow the shirt to be changed, No T. Just make sure scorekeeper has knowledge of new number for player....

#2. If the foul was in the act of shooting but after horn went off, award 2 shots. Otherwise, unless the foul was int'l or flag, it is ignored as the period has ended.

Originally posted by Camron Rust
I must disagree here.

In the case you reference, the player had released the ball before the horn, so the ball actually remains live after the horn until the try ends. Also, fouls involving an airborne shooter apply until the shooter lands. So, any foul on the airborne shooter is penalized.

However, in the case at hand, an airborne shooter is a player who has released a try. While a try had started, it ended when the ball be came dead by the exipration of time with the ball still in the shooters hands. The player never becomes an airborne shooter. Any foul after the horn, is just that, a foul after the horn...to be ignored unless intentional or flagrant.

Camron's post above about the 2nd situation made me think about exactly what the definition of an Airborne shooter is, so I went and looked in my rule book and section 4-1-1,2 are the defintions of an airborne shooter.

4-1-1... An airborne shooter is a player who has RELEASED the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor.
4-1-2... the airborne shooter is considered in the act of shooting.

Using my argument that I posted earlier, I was wrong because this isn't considered an airborne shooter so the period would end at the horn, unless we have something flagrant. This is assuming that the foul would have taken place after the release of the ball. Now if the foul occurred before the release and before the horn then we should have waved off the basket and shot 2. If the foul occurred after the horn but before the release we would again ignore it unless it is flagrant.

Thanks for your help Camron.

Let me know what you guys think based on the definitions that I gave.

Jerry

[mick]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

What are you saying here Mick? Usually I follow you, but you completely lost me here. Are you saying because the player was off the court he was bench personnel, so you called a player technical on a player who had appropriately already left the court and become bench personnel? Either way, you can still call the tech, it's just a different type of tech, which I know that you know. But your statement as it stands is hard to figure out.

4-5 years ago, a player was on a breakaway, dropped a dime as he hit the endline, and kinda just stood there outabounds watching the other players play. I T'd him. I shoulda ignored him. I didn't understand the rule, intent, nor purpose. I shoulda just watched like the Dude suggested, but instead I made the worst call of my life.
mick

[RookieDude]

(Note to self: Watch yourself Dude, you are about to disagree with one of the smartest, nicest, and sincere of the big dogs.)

[Quote]Originally posted by mick
I once called a multiple foul on an air-borne shooter and awarded 4 shots. When I reported it, I probably called it a double foul. Wasn't questioned by Coach or fans[Quote]

This is exactly what I am talking about mick.
It is better to not make a call that you have no idea how to administer...than make a call and totally screw up the administration of that call.

In your example,(and I'm sure it was when you were a newbie official) you could have screwed the team out of a win by giving the other team too many shots!
All in the name of YOU getting better.
Sure, I agree with you that embaressment will make you a better official...BUT, will it make THAT game better.
These games are an excellent training ground...but don't make it at the expense of the game. Get better by reading and studying your rules, as you stated, before you call something that you have no idea how to administer.
Trust me...you will remember that situation that you passed on in the game...and if you are good, will look it up later...again, not at the expense of the game at hand.
I'm sure the Coach of the team that gets screwed by your missapplication of the rules would rather you get "better" somewhere else...such as here, or at home reading your rules. JMHO

Dude
P.S. Remember, this is a speech for the newer officials or those just starting out...not you mick...just your philosophy on this one.


[Edited by RookieDude on Jan 14th, 2003 at 03:04 PM]

[mick]

Originally posted by RookieDude
[B Watch yourself Dude, you are about to disagree.... [/B]

Dude,
I don't think we're disagreeing as much as we are both sending U.P. caution flags.
mick

[mick]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Good judgment comes from experience.

Experience comes from bad judgment.

Yes. Amen. ...And so, it will be.

[RookieDude]

...and on this we can totally agree!!!

Dude

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by twoblindrefs
#2. If the foul was in the act of shooting but after horn went off, award 2 shots. Otherwise, unless the foul was int'l or flag, it is ignored as the period has ended.

As I essentially said above, the only way to be in the act of shooting after the exipration of time is to be an airborne shooter (an airborne player who has released the ball on a try ). If time expires with the ball in the shooter's hands, the try and the act of shooting ends. So, even if the player is airborne, they are no longer a shooter and can not be an airborne shooter. So, any contact with that player after the horn is not a foul unless it is intentional or flagrant.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude
(Note to self: Watch yourself Dude, you are about to disagree with one of the smartest, nicest, and sincere of the big dogs.)