Double Dribble

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by APHP
What if the ball had hit his shin instead of the foot ?? What if the ball had hit his torso instead of the foot ??

What player is *intending* to dribble (off the floor), has the ball hit another body part and catches the ball without moving the pivot foot?

I'd have a travel right here, so I wouldn't have to worry about another dribble.

[Hawks Coach]

I will concede that you can just release a ball and catch it again without moving (and therefore without travelling), and without passing, shooting, fumbling, or dribbling. In addition, we have some dribbling and other rules that don't appear to be designed to address this one in a million situation. The most important in my mind would be:

Rule 4, SECTION 15 DRIBBLE
ART. 3 . . . The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor.
ART. 5 . . . An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

SECTION 29 KICKING THE BALL
Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with the knee or any part of the leg or foot below the knee.


I would argue that once the player attempted to dribble and released the ball, what you now have is a dribble that could simultaneously be interrupted if it got away from him. But I would call this the start of a dribble, even if he interrupted the start of his dribble by getting his foot in the way. May not be the most pure interpretation, but this play is hardly one of purity.

If we take the more extreme view, that he intended to bounce it off his foot, he is intentionally striking the ball with his foot as well, IMO. So then you have a kicked ball situation if he does multiple bounces off the foot.

While this may not technically meet the rules, the rules do not envision every circumstance and this seems to be the best possible application of the rules to a bizarre and unlikely situation.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

The dribble has to start when he pushes it TOWARD the floor. I know the rule doesn't use the word "toward" but that is surely the intent (of the rule and of the player). Surely you wouldn't call it no dribble if it hit the defender's foot.

And the dribble ends when he catches it.

Perhaps he doesn't catch it but continues his dribble... his pivot foot moved with the first downward motion. If you didn't call that first downward push the beginning of a dribble, then are you going to call a travel with the second downward motion because his pivot foot has now moved?

Check CB 4.15.4D(c) "While dribbling... (c)the ball hits A1's foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and pick it up.... In (c) the DRIBBLE (my emphasis) ended when A1 caught the ball... Even though the dribble has ended in (c)... A1 may recover the ball."

I realize the posted scenario doesn't include "bounces away" but this is a no-brainer. He dribbled and got lucky that it bounced back to himself.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

To prove my point consider the play in which A1 is behind the 3 pt. line and throws the ball into the lane where it hits B1 in the head and then goes into the basket without ever touching the floor. The correct ruling is that this counts for three points. If your interpretation of 4-4-4 were correct, this would only be two points since the ball would have "hit" the floor when it bounced off B1's head.

I can't believe what I just read. The play mentioned is in NO way a 3-point shot. The rule that makes a thrown ball a 3 if it goes in only applies to throws that arguably could be a try. A clear pass that is deflected into the basket is not considered a 3. If a ball that is thrown from outside the 3-point arc is touched in the lane there are 4 possibilties (that I can think of).

1. The shot was missed...the try is over
   
2. Basket Interference
   
3. Goaltending
   
4. It was not a try, but a pass
   

Either the first or the last applies. 2 points if it goes in.

[Hawks Coach]

Nevadaref
You have to read further into rule 4 to get the three point call right (and it clearly is not a three).

4-40
ART. 4 . . . The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

The three point try ended when the ball hit the player's head because it was certain that it would not be successful (unless that head was directly in line with and above the cylinder so that the player was goaltending with his head - and I'd like to see that play!). In either case, the try ended when the ball hit the player's head, one because it was clear the throw was not going in, and the later because goaltending made the ball dead.

I must add that I can't see why there is a need to have a touching the floor provision, since once the ball is below the rim you are certain that the throw was unsuccessful. 9.9 feet above the floor should be sufficient to end a try every time, because something will have to intervene to make that ball go in after it gets below the rim.

[mick]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
... because something will have to intervene to make that ball go in ....

That's exactly what I needed when I shot the ball, ...intervention.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

I can't believe what I just read. The play mentioned is in NO way a 3-point shot. The rule that makes a thrown ball a 3 if it goes in only applies to throws that arguably could be a try. A clear pass that is deflected into the basket is not considered a 3. If a ball that is thrown from outside the 3-point arc is touched in the lane there are 4 possibilties (that I can think of).

1. The shot was missed...the try is over
   
2. Basket Interference
   
3. Goaltending
   
4. It was not a try, but a pass
   

Either the first or the last applies. 2 points if it goes in.

A1 passes to A2 from Team A's backcourt. A1 threw the ball to hard...basketball goes through Team A's basket in the frontcourt.
Whatta ya got? 2pts. or 3pts.?
NFHS

Dude

[pizanno]

/QUOTE][/B]

A1 passes to A2 from Team A's backcourt. A1 threw the ball to hard...basketball goes through Team A's basket in the frontcourt.
Whatta ya got? 2pts. or 3pts.?
NFHS

Dude [/B][/QUOTE]


3 points.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Huhh???

A1 pass bounces off of A2 and goes through Team A basket? Is that what you asked?

If so, this is not a 3-point attempt and would not be scored as such... independent of A1's location when he passed the ball.

2 points for the team, credited to no one.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick

That's exactly what I needed when I shot the ball, ...intervention.

Ya had left-handed balls,though!

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by RookieDude

A1 passes to A2 from Team A's backcourt. A1 threw the ball to hard...basketball goes through Team A's basket in the frontcourt.
Whatta ya got? 2pts. or 3pts.?
NFHS

Dude

If it goes directly in the basket, 3. If it is below the rim and hits A2 then goes in, 2 points.

That is the purpose of the new rule. We don't have to figure out if it was a pass or shot when it goes directly in. It has not changed effect of a shot/pass that falls below the rim and then is deflected in. The original "try" has ended and the score is by the player who deflected the ball.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Huhh???

A1 pass bounces off of A2 and goes through Team A basket? Is that what you asked?

If so, this is not a 3-point attempt and would not be scored as such... independent of A1's location when he passed the ball.

2 points for the team, credited to no one.

No, ball did not touch any other player.
A1 TRIED to pass it to A2...ball hit nothing but net!

Dude

[Nevadaref]

Guys this rule was changed LAST year. Here is the current wording:
5-2-1 ...A successful try, tap or thrown ball that does not touch the floor, a teammate or official, from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch line counts three points. Any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

Now let's review the play that I first wrote: "A1 is behind the 3 pt. line and throws the ball into the lane where it hits B1 in the head and then goes into the basket without ever touching the floor."
1. Was this a thrown ball, from the field, by a player who is located behind the team's own 3pt. line? Yes.
2. Did the ball touch the floor? No.
3. Did the ball touch a teammate? No. It hit an opponent.
4. Did the ball touch an official? No.
RULING: It counts for three points!

In addition, the casebook play that accompanies this rule has been reworded THIS YEAR. Here is this year's wording:
5.2.1 Situation C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. Ruling: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

My play falls under part (b) of this Case Book play and is ruled to be three-points.

It is my belief that since both of these were just updated, that they correctly reflect the rules committee's current view on this play. The Case Book play that JR has pointed out, 4.40.4 Situation B, which says to score two points, was not updated in the past two years. My opinion is that this was an oversight by the committee, and since they conflict, we should go with the newer ruling.

It seems that the main point of those taking the other side is that the ball was below the level of the ring when it hit the defender. According to the new wording of 5-2-1 this no longer matters. Adding the words "thrown ball" to the rule means that it no longer has to be a try. We now only have to look at where the ball was thrown from, and what it hit before going into the basket.

Hey, I don't write the rules, I just read them!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

I can't believe what I just read. The play mentioned is in NO way a 3-point shot. The rule that makes a thrown ball a 3 if it goes in only applies to throws that arguably could be a try. A clear pass that is deflected into the basket is not considered a 3.

Camron,
I completely disagree. Your last two sentences are merely your opinions. That is not what the amended 5-2-1 says. As I detailed in my last post above, according to the black and white words of the rule this play is worth 3 points.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

To prove my point consider the play in which A1 is behind the 3 pt. line and throws the ball into the lane where it hits B1 in the head and then goes into the basket without ever touching the floor. The correct ruling is that this counts for three points. If your interpretation of 4-4-4 were correct, this would only be two points since the ball would have "hit" the floor when it bounced off B1's head.
[/B][/QUOTE]This is your original post,Nevada.Please compare it your post above.Please note your use of the word "legally" in your post above,as well as in the rule that you quoted.Please ask yourself the very simple question "can any player LEGALLY touch a ball if it is on the way down,and what happens if they do?" For B1 to "legally" touch the ball in this case, then the ball must still be on the way up and B1's head must have been,at a very minimum,more than 10 feet up when the ball hit it. Please tell us how many eleven foot tall basketball players you have seen lately!

You have no rules basis to make the claim that you are making.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 16th, 2003 at 06:25 AM]