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Fri Jan 10, 2003, 10:16pm
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Yeterday in a middle school game I was the scorekeeper in, we had two refs who were calling there first or second game ever. I could go on and on about how many bad calls they did, but one stood out. A1 goes up for a layup and makes it. As A1 was going up, B1 went for the rebound. When B1 came down, he pushed off on A1. The referee gave team A the basket and the ball. I was wondering if there is anything about this in the rulebook.
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Fri Jan 10, 2003, 11:06pm
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futureboy,
Prepare to be bombarded. I'll go first. First, you tell us how bad the officials were. Then you ask us if a certain play is in the rule book. Have you ever seen a rule book, much less read one? Second, to the play you asked about. If A, the shooter has returned to the floor and is then fouled by B, yes, you count the basket and give the ball back to A. Sounds like a good call to me. Perhaps you should wait until you've read a rule book and worked a few games before you come to an officiating forum and criticize an official.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Fri Jan 10, 2003, 11:14pm
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good call, BktBallRef
they were lucky to get refs who made that call correctly in only their 1st of 2nd game ever reffed. futurerefboy, from your title I guess you are a MS kid scoring the teams games? ask your school's coach or AD for a copy of a rule book--and read it!
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Fri Jan 10, 2003, 11:16pm
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Well, if you want to be a ref in the future, you should probably change the way you look at things - maybe explaining some of the calls and why you think they're "bad." When you're the scorekeeper - make sure you keep your mouth shut in regard to the game at hand.
That said, the ref might have been wrong in this particular case. Had A1 returned to the floor? If he had, then any contact would not be a foul unless it was flagrant or intentional. If A1 was still airborne, then this would have been a shooting foul - count the basket, one FT for A1. However, considering this is a middle school play and the timing between hoop and contact was very small, a common foul (while not technically correct) might be the best call.
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
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Sat Jan 11, 2003, 01:13am
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Sounds like maybe shooter had landed by the time defender crashed him. In that case, count the hoop and award possession back to shooting team (if no bonus). In other words, the official made the right call. I had a situation like that in my Varsity tourney game tonight...shooting team then quickly sank a 3...kind of a 5-point play!
NOW...futurerefboy, first or second game ever? I'll bet those two officials made some bad calls. So did I in my first game (makes me shiver, come to think of it)...so did most of the senior guys on this board, I imagine. Just wait until your first game, maybe you can come back on this board and tell us all how perfect you were. Keep your current attitude, and when/if you do pick up the whistle, you'll last about two games before you get your butt kicked.
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Sat Jan 11, 2003, 11:49am
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he actually blew his whistle once, and didn't know what to do. He just waited about fifteen seconds and then decided to call travel.
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Sat Jan 11, 2003, 12:04pm
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Futurerefboy, please review...
Quote:
Sorry, but it appears the first "bad call" of this game was recruiting you as the scorekeeper.
__________________
"Stay in the game!"
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Sun Jan 12, 2003, 10:07pm
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Write this down and see if you appreciate it some day, futurerefboy. It takes more guts to make bad calls than it does to sit and complain about them.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove
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Sun Jan 12, 2003, 11:14pm
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Quote:
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Mon Jan 13, 2003, 07:47am
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Quote:
Hey future, pick up a whistle and come talk to us about how fun it is and be sure to ask us all sorts of questions about different situations that you see. I was probably the hardest ones on refs when I was younger. I mocked them all the time and now I wouldn't give it up for the world!
__________________
~Hodges My two sense! 
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Mon Jan 13, 2003, 05:33pm
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Incidental contact
To further elaborate on Mark's post, I believe what he is suggesting is that any contact after the shooter had returned to the floor on a made shot could be considered incidental. In general, such contact occurs frequently and does not prevent normal offensive and defensive movements.
HOWEVER, I disagree strongly with Mark's assumption that this is not a foul by rule. There are certainly rules that can support the idea of not calling a foul, but you have to see the contact to know whether or not it warrants a foul. Perhaps it actually could have resulted in an intentional or flagrant foul - futurerefboy said that B pushed A. You have to see this push to decide call or no-call, and what type of foul. And yes, inexperienced refs will not have as good a background to make that decision. But the call is NOT WRONG by any rule in the book - it is just one that you must choose wisely when calling.
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Mon Jan 13, 2003, 05:37pm
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One other consideration
When deciding call or no-call, you must also take into account how the overall game is going. Is it getting a little too chippy in there? If so, you might want to call a couple of fouls on this type of contact to make the game better. And if player B has been asking for a foul, that may factor in as well.
So we can't sit here with this little info and decide whether or not it is a foul, and what type of foul it is. As for the travelling example, ease up guys. I think he used some poetic license on the time, and was citing another example. I agree that he is being hard on officials with little justification (he doesn't even know the rules himself), but try to be even handed.
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Mon Jan 13, 2003, 06:02pm
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Re: Incidental contact
Quote:
Perhaps if futurerefboy would like to clarify . . .
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
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Mon Jan 13, 2003, 08:45pm
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Rule reference please
Mark
I wasn't thinking straight. If try is made and foul occurs before ball is in hands of B for inbounds, ball is dead - no foul unless intentional or flagrant. Most likely this occurred, so common foul is wrong call. Not sure that futurerefboy knows this rule though - how about frb? Where might we find this rule?
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Mon Jan 13, 2003, 11:11pm
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The original play stated, "As A1 was going up, B1 went for the rebound. When B1 came down, he pushed off on A1."
Remember that we're talking about middle school. I would imagine that most MS players would have returned to the floor and could have been fouled before the ball went through the basket. I've got a foul.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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