Not playing by the rules

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Last night, we lost a reasonably close game to a pretty good team in their gym. Of course I felt like many of the calls were going against us. Late in the game, we had a player foul out. I used nearly the whole 30, giving instructions to my team. About a minute later, another player fouled out. Her fifth foul was in the backcourt, gambling for a steal as the score and time dictated. There was a crash, and she hopped up and walked away quickly, obviously frustrated but not commenting, looking back, stomping or anything like that. The calling official stared her down from the spot of the foul for a good 5-7 seconds while she walked away. This really ticked me off.

We are down to about 45 seconds left at this point. The other official informs me of the 30 seconds to sub, and this time I use almost all of it but just staring back out at the other official, not coaching. We go back out for the free throws, and after lining up but just before giving the ball to the shooter, I have my player call my last timeout. The reporting official is the staring guy. So I go up to him, tell him it's my last one and it's a full, and I ask him what have we done to deserve the attitude he's giving my team right now. He said, "no attitude, just trying to keep the game moving." I told him he was staring down our player and I didn't appreciate it. He said that I wasn't playing by the rules, which further irritated me. I asked what he meant, and he said that I was stalling and we both knew it. I agreed, and told him I wasn't breaking any rules. If he'd have said I was a jerk for stalling, I'd agree with that. But when he said I wasn't playing by the rules, well, that burns me up.

I guess I don't have a question. I'm coming to confessional to admit to the stalling (a jerk move I've never done before and I don't plan to repeat), especially since it was already 11:35 when I rolled into my house last night!

Oh wait, here is a question. Monday night we played the best team in our section. I noticed their best player has a tongue stud. Next time we play them, if right before the game I tell the official that #24 from the opponents has a tongue stud in, what do you think they will do?

[williebfree]

Coach...

I do not feel you used your TO's very efficiently. IMO, that time would have been much more constructively spent coaching your players. Your interaction with the official did not accomplish anything. I have a philosophy about coaches who spent their time chipping and chirping to the official, "When the coach goes after the offical he has given up on his team." Comments?

TONGUE STUD COMMENT: That is NOT nice. You just want to watch flairing egos explode like the fourth of July... SHAME ON YOU!

[Ref in PA]

Sorry Coach about the loss. Last night I called a foul on a player and was unsure of his number. He was standing sideways to me and I figured I could reconfirm what I thought his number was as I went towards the table. Well, for what ever reason, I could not get a good look at his jersey and eventually had to go back a step or two to see it clearly. As I think about it, I probably looked like I was staring down the kid to a certain extent when all I was trying to do was reconfirm the number. However, your situation was probably different.

Now about the stud. If I see it, it has to be removed. If someone tells me about it, I will be on the lookout for it, but will not conduct a specific search for it. That is how we have been instructed. Suppose a player has a belly button ring. Someone tells me about it. I make the player lift the shirt (without having seen it) and it is not there ... the player had removed it prior to the game. Now I am in trouble. I can be accused of all sorts of things. I have no problem with someone telling me that V42 has a stud or a ring somewhere not exposed. I will watch, but I cannot do anything until I see. And what is the penalty? The player goes out of the game, removes the adornment and then subs back in at the next available time. It is up to you if pointing it out to a ref is important to you.

[zebraman]

There was a crash, and she hopped up and walked away quickly, obviously frustrated but not commenting, looking
back, stomping or anything like that. The calling official stared her down from the spot of the foul for a good 5-7 seconds while she walked away. This really ticked me off.

If she was "obviously frustrated" (your words), did it ever cross your mind that the official was just making sure she didn't do something stupid or unsportsmanlike? It is our job to keep our eyes on the players at all times and this is even more important when there is a frustrated players. For you to use your substitution time or time-out time to just stare at the officials is unsportsmanlike and an unwise use of your time that you could be giving to the kids.

Z

[hawkk]

Uh, guys, Coach admitted it was, in his words, a "jerk move" that he would not do again, I don't think we need to beat him up about it anymore . . . .

[stripes]

Maybe I'm different than the rest of you, but if a coach wants to waste a TO to stare at me, its his loss, not mine. I couldn't care less what he does with his TO, it is really none of my concern.

As for the "not playing by the rules", coaches are entitled to 30 seconds. They can, IMO, do anything they want that will not get them a T during that time, but they had better have a player ready to come out when the buzzer sounds. The last TO was a "jerk" move, but I've seen it before and I will see it again, no big deal. Sounds mostly like two kids trying to "one up" the other on the court. I guess I would ask the coach why you want to get down to this guy's level?

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by zebraman
There was a crash, and she hopped up and walked away quickly, obviously frustrated but not commenting, looking
back, stomping or anything like that. The calling official stared her down from the spot of the foul for a good 5-7 seconds while she walked away. This really ticked me off.

If she was "obviously frustrated" (your words), did it ever cross your mind that the official was just making sure she didn't do something stupid or unsportsmanlike? It is our job to keep our eyes on the players at all times and this is even more important when there is a frustrated players. For you to use your substitution time or time-out time to just stare at the officials is unsportsmanlike and an unwise use of your time that you could be giving to the kids.

Z

Maybe I misinterpreted the look, but I think there is a difference between a look of "let me make sure nothing stupid is done" and "go ahead, do something to give me a reason".

Agreed, it was a waste of a timeout. In my defense, the outcome of the game was decided at this point. I did get to at least 30 seconds of the timeout to tell them to finish the game with class, and to not do anything to give the opponents any reason for additional motivation. We have them again in our gym on the 31st.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
He said that I wasn't playing by the rules, which further irritated me. I asked what he meant, and he said that I was stalling and we both knew it. I agreed, and told him I wasn't breaking any rules. If he'd have said I was a jerk for stalling, I'd agree with that. But when he said I wasn't playing by the rules, well, that burns me up.

__________________________________________________ __________

If this is your worst crime, then in my opinion you are a pretty good guy. The word "stalling" is a harsh-sounding term. One could say that you were trying to "slow the game
down." Certainly there are legitimate reasons for this, to break the other team's momentum, to give your team a breather, etc. If none of these apply in this case, and looking back on it you feel that you were just making a show because there was nothing else you could do, then learn from it and move on. I don't feel that it was appropriate for the official to scold you in any way under these circumstances. Also, even if you agree with it now, if he had called you a jerk for stalling at the time, I suspect it would have made matters even worse.

[kmref]

I asked what he meant, and he said that I was stalling and we both knew it. I agreed, and told him I wasn't breaking any rules. If he'd have said I was a jerk for stalling, I'd agree with that. But when he said I wasn't playing by the rules, well, that burns me up.

I guess I don't have a question. I'm coming to confessional to admit to the stalling (a jerk move I've never done before and I don't plan to repeat), especially since it was already 11:35 when I rolled into my house last night!
__________________________________________________ __________

My question is... why does everyone think this is a jerk move? Stalling and icing a shooter is part of the game. As a coach why wouldn't you take advantage the rules and use them to you're benefit. If you didn't, then people would say that you are not doing your job. As an official, I expect coaches to complain about calls, use stalling tactics, etc. Its all in the game. We (coachs and officials)are here for the athletes not the other way around. Just my opinion.

[rockyroad]

Coach - you know what your motivation was, and if you say the t.o. was a "jerk" move, then I believe you...I also believe you when you say you won't do it again...as far as the official staring down your player - had there been some interaction between the two of them before? Do you know this official or have you had this official before? I guess I am just wondering what would make an official do something like that...it seems strange that he would do it for no reason, but who knows...the fact that he had no response to your staring down question, but quickly changed the topic to you not playing by the rules causes me to think that he was out of line and knew it...good learning experience for the player - what did you tell her and the team afterwards??

[Edited by rockyroad on Jan 8th, 2003 at 12:13 PM]

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by kmref
I asked what he meant, and he said that I was stalling and we both knew it. I agreed, and told him I wasn't breaking any rules. If he'd have said I was a jerk for stalling, I'd agree with that. But when he said I wasn't playing by the rules, well, that burns me up.

I guess I don't have a question. I'm coming to confessional to admit to the stalling (a jerk move I've never done before and I don't plan to repeat), especially since it was already 11:35 when I rolled into my house last night!
__________________________________________________ __________

My question is... why does everyone think this is a jerk move? Stalling and icing a shooter is part of the game. As a coach why wouldn't you take advantage the rules and use them to you're benefit. If you didn't, then people would say that you are not doing your job. As an official, I expect coaches to complain about calls, use stalling tactics, etc. Its all in the game. We (coachs and officials)are here for the athletes not the other way around. Just my opinion.

This was a jerk move because we were down by double digits and there was less than 45 seconds left. The outcome had been decided. And my timeout wasn't to ice the shooter, or to give instructions. It was just to be a jerk.

[bard]

My 2-cents, if a player is looking extremely frustrated or angry, I'm going to keep my eye on her until I'm confident she's at a point where she's not going to do something that warrants a T. Hopefully that won't look like staring down, but I can see where a misperception might come in.

Personally, I have no problem with the last second timeout or "stalling," even if the game is decided. You've got some additional time to coach and teach your kids. Use it. That's why you're paid the big bucks.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by rockyroad
Coach - you know what your motivation was, and if you say the t.o. was a "jerk" move, then I believe you...I also believe you when you say you won't do it again...as far as the official staring down your player - had there been some interaction between the two of them before? Do you know this official or have you had this official before? I guess I am just wondering what would make an official do something like that...it seems strange that he would do it for no reason, but who knows...the fact that he had no response to your staring down question, but quickly changed the topic to you not playing by the rules causes me to think that he was out of line and knew it...good learning experience for the player - what did you tell her and the team afterwards??

[Edited by rockyroad on Jan 8th, 2003 at 12:13 PM]

Yes, we've had this official before. We have a 24-team league, so there are 12 games on league night and I'll bet there are around 30-40 varsity girls' officials so we get the same officials between 1-4 times each each year.

There is a perception around our league, that I buy into to some degree, about one county versus another. Of our 24 teams, there are 18 from one county and 6 from the other. You almost always get officials from the county of the home school (it's all one association, but I'm sure they sometimes assign officials to games based on proximity to home), and the perception is that Lebanon County officials want to see Lebanon County teams win (and prove that the bball is better there), and same with Lancaster County. Sounds ridiculous I know. And I'm sure if it does take place it is minimal. But the coaches all talk about it. So when I get a Lebanon County guy in a Lebanon County gym, and things don't go our way, it's easy to think that there is something more going on. 99% of me knows it's stupid to think that.

[hawkk]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Yes, we've had this official before. We have a 24-team league, so there are 12 games on league night and I'll bet there are around 30-40 varsity girls' officials so we get the same officials between 1-4 times each each year.

There is a perception around our league, that I buy into to some degree, about one county versus another. Of our 24 teams, there are 18 from one county and 6 from the other. You almost always get officials from the county of the home school (it's all one association, but I'm sure they sometimes assign officials to games based on proximity to home), and the perception is that Lebanon County officials want to see Lebanon County teams win (and prove that the bball is better there), and same with Lancaster County. Sounds ridiculous I know. And I'm sure if it does take place it is minimal. But the coaches all talk about it. So when I get a Lebanon County guy in a Lebanon County gym, and things don't go our way, it's easy to think that there is something more going on. 99% of me knows it's stupid to think that.

Just curious -- is there a sytle difference in the ways they ref in the counties? I went to HS in San Jose, and our league had half teams in San Francisco, and half teams in San Jose and the penninsult. Refs in SF allowed much more contact (creating an advantage for the SF teams that were used to it), than was usually allowed by the non-SF refs (creating a home advantage for the teams more used to the tighter calls).

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

I ref in 4 different HS conferences here in MN and it is an unwritten rule that the big schools "get to play more". So when refs that do mainly small schools are given a big school HS game they are sometimes percieved as whistle happy. In my opinion you need to use your judgement and apply rules as they imply to the skill of the players and the level of the game. I have also seen this work in inverse as sometimes state tourney officials that work exclusively big school ball get a small school tourney game the coaches and the fans think the players are getting maimed and there is no whistle. IMO however a good official adapts to the style of play.