Help With This Situation

[coachmjw]

I am a basketball coach who would like some help with this situation. We scored to tie a game with 4 seconds. Our opponent hurried the ball up the floor and according to the referee we fouled their player on a shot for a lay up. The shot and the horn were so close that you couldn't tell the difference. Obviously on judgement of the official it happenned before the horn went off. Personally I feel the official should of waived it off and said "OVERTIME". The official had the player shoot the free throws with no one in the lane - the player made the first free throw and the game was over. Should the lane have been cleared? Should some time of been put back on the clock? If the player was fouled before the horn according to the official then their should still be some time.

I also would like some opinions by officials on the judgement of this play. If no time is on the clock I as a basketball coach feel strongly the official should of waived the play off. The trail official at half court made a comment to me that he would of waived it off but it was not his call. I told him it sure is - he needs to discuss this play with the official who made the call.

Please comment.

[Jurassic Referee]

I also would like some opinions by officials on the judgement of this play. [/B]

Coach,I'll give you the same answers that I gave on the other board:
1)It is strictly a judgement call by the calling official as to whether the foul occured before the period ended.
2)The period ends when the horn goes off,not when the clock reads 0:00 seconds.
3)The timer is allowed,by rule,a one-second time lag to stop the clock in cases like this.Therefore,time should not have been put back on the clock.
4)If the period is over,as in this case,the players do not line up along the lane by rule.
5)Everything that the calling official did was completely justified by the rulebook.
6)The trail official could have talked to his partner about the time remaining,but he can NEVER over-rule his partner.There is no option in high school ball that will allow a video replay of the call either.
7)The trail official was completely wrong and unprofessional to make those comments to you about the timing.That's strictly his judgement,also,and it can never help in a situation like this.All it does is make you madder,without explaining the ins and outs of the call.

The bottom line,Coach,is that it was strictly a judgement call by the official that didn't go your way.The other coach probably thinks that the call was 100% correct,though.

Welcome to the board.Always glad to have coaches here.We've got some guys that already post here that are pretty sharp dudes,rules-wise.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 1st, 2003 at 07:03 AM]

[BktBallRef]

Coach, welcome to the board. I've posted on your board a few times myself. Now, to your post.

Originally posted by coachmjw
I am a basketball coach who would like some help with this situation. We scored to tie a game with 4 seconds. Our opponent hurried the ball up the floor and according to the referee we fouled their player on a shot for a lay up. The shot and the horn were so close that you couldn't tell the difference.

The shot was so close to the horn that you, admittedly, could tell which came first. Yet, you expect the official to wave off the shot and the foul? I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.

Obviously on judgement of the official it happenned before the horn went off. Personally I feel the official should of waived it off and said "OVERTIME". The official had the player shoot the free throws with no one in the lane - the player made the first free throw and the game was over.

Okay, so you're saying that the shot was missed and you're arguing that the foul should not have been called because the shot came after the basket? One thing doesn't have anything to do with the other.

If the player is fouled in the act of shooting, it doesn't matter whether the shot is released prior to the horn or not. The only thing that matters is whether the foul occurred before the horn or not.

Also, was the shooter sirborne? If so, it doesn't matter whether the foul occurred prior to the horn or not. An airborne shooter can be fouled, or can foul, until he returns to the floor.

Should the lane have been cleared?

Yes. The ball will become dead after the last FT, whether made or not, so the lane is cleared.

Should some time of been put back on the clock? If the player was fouled before the horn according to the official then their should still be some time.

No. If the horn sounded so close to the whistle that the clock could not be stopped, no time is put back on the clock. The timer is allowed 1 second of "lag time" to stop the clock.

[/B][/QUOTE]I also would like some opinions by officials on the judgement of this play. If no time is on the clock I as a basketball coach feel strongly the official should of waived the play off.[/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry but the rules don't support that. And, I bet you wouldn't feel that way if your player was fouled.

The trail official at half court made a comment to me that he would of waived it off but it was not his call.

That was a stupid remark on his part. I wouldn't want to work with this official. If he has a concern, he should voice it to his partner and not you.

I told him it sure is - he needs to discuss this play with the official who made the call.

He was correct in that this was not his call. If his partner asks for help, he can certainly offer what he saw but it is not his call.

If I've misunderstood what you were asking, please clarify for me. But as long as the foul occurred before the horn or the foul occurred on an airborne shooter, even after the horn, it was a good call.

Sounds like a good call to me.

[Kelvin green]

There's one thing that I think has been missed....

Why wasn't this Trail's call. A layup with four seconds should not be lead's call. Although there are no specific guidelines in the NF Manual ( of course)... If trail cant make a last second call with four seconds on the clock, and the lead thinks it is his call... Oh my!

This is where a good pregame comes into play, and where once again the NBA has done a better job outlining duties. In the NBA( Two man mechanics) if there is 2.9 or less, Lead has front court shots, and Trail has shots from backcourt. This is a great division of responsibility and works real well.

[coachmjw]

Where is the good officials who know how to handle a game. They look at the clock see the horn and foul were so close and he waives it off and goes to overtime. Another official in the same tournament made a critical technical foul call that determined the outcome because a team got their replacement in for a foul out player one second too late. Where is the good official who uses preventive officiating: he goes into the huddle and says "give me a sub right now coach." I call this preventive officiating. The guys who do best on their rules tests I have found to have the worst management of these situations.

I also officiate - I call the foul look at the clock and heard the horn - see the game is tied. I don't make the foul call - say overtime. Ref's know the situation and use common sense.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
There's one thing that I think has been missed....

Why wasn't this Trail's call. A layup with four seconds should not be lead's call. Although there are no specific guidelines in the NF Manual ( of course)... If trail cant make a last second call with four seconds on the clock, and the lead thinks it is his call... Oh my!

This is where a good pregame comes into play, and where once again the NBA has done a better job outlining duties. In the NBA( Two man mechanics) if there is 2.9 or less, Lead has front court shots, and Trail has shots from backcourt. This is a great division of responsibility and works real well.

Kelvin,are you reading this right?The old trail becomes the new lead when the ball got hustled the other way in this sitch,after the score with 4 seconds to go on the other end. The lead is right on the play-it's coming at him and he's right there.It always the lead's call on a layup like this,unless he gets straight lined and needs help from his partner.The only possible thing that the trail could add to this play would be his opinion as to whether the shot was in the air when the horn sounded,in case the ball hadda gone in.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Where are the good coaches who know and understand the rules?

Preventive officiating doesn't have one damn thing to do with this situation.If you really are an official,you should know better than to make a statement like that.In that official's judgement,the foul happened before the game ended with the horn.That's his job,and he did it.End of story!If you were the other coach,you would be saying that that ref was the greatest official in the world.

You lost.The officials didn't cost you the game.Get over it and quit whining!

[zebraman]

Where is the good officials who know how to handle a game.

Where is the coach that can accept a loss and move on and look in the mirror to see what coaching could have been done better? The official judged the shot before the horn and made the call. If you truly are an official, where did you learn that if it's close you waive it off and go to overtime? The official that called your game should be commended for stepping up and making the difficult call.

Maybe you should concentrate on how your team is being coached such that they allow the opponents to go the entire length of the court in 4 seconds for a lay-up and commit a game-deciding foul.

Z

[coachmjw]

I agree. I just had questions about the clock and how the lane was handled. I have been coaching for nearly 30 years and will tell you the best officials are the ones who handle players and coaches with compassion. It is obvious that some officials in this group feel attacked when a question is asked by a coach. The fact the team got the ball down the floor in 4-5 seconds on a made basket has nothing to do with it.

The trail official saying it was not good but he has no say made me upset.

I also do officiate - I would of called no foul. BUT this is obviously judgement call and is not open to interpretation. If a judgment call - the official has the call and I guess he made the correct call. We as coaches don't have to agree. Sorry I appeared to be crying.

Thanks for the help and the topic is closed as far as I am concerned.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by coachmjw
Where is the good officials who know how to handle a game. They look at the clock see the horn and foul were so close and he waives it off and goes to overtime.

I'm sorry coach but you're seeing this play with your heart, not arbitrary eyes. We are paid to call the game by the rules. If the player fouled was an airborne shooter, which I'm guessing he was, whether the foul occurred, prior to the horn is of no consequence.

No one here is attacking you. You came here asking for comments. When we don't agree with you, you accuse of attacking you. Sorry, but I don't ubderstand, especially after reading your board for a couple of years.

If you, as an official, would ignore this foul simply because it was too close to the horn, then you're better off coaching than officiating becuase you simply don't ubderstand the responsibility. Had the shoe been on the other foot, you would have been here crying about the no-call.

Your response is dissappointing.

Good luck the remainder of the season.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
There's one thing that I think has been missed....

Why wasn't this Trail's call. A layup with four seconds should not be lead's call. Although there are no specific guidelines in the NF Manual ( of course)... If trail cant make a last second call with four seconds on the clock, and the lead thinks it is his call... Oh my!

The play starts at the far end and goes the length of the court in 4 seconds. The lead should make the call as to whether the shot was released prior to the horn or not in this case. There's no way the trail can go the length of the floor and know better than the lead whether the ball is released or not on a layup.

Beyond that, this isn't the issue. The issue is, when did the foul occur and was it against an airborne shooter? No, that is not the trail's call.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
There's one thing that I think has been missed....

Why wasn't this Trail's call. A layup with four seconds should not be lead's call. Although there are no specific guidelines in the NF Manual ( of course)... If trail cant make a last second call with four seconds on the clock, and the lead thinks it is his call... Oh my!

This is where a good pregame comes into play, and where once again the NBA has done a better job outlining duties. In the NBA( Two man mechanics) if there is 2.9 or less, Lead has front court shots, and Trail has shots from backcourt. This is a great division of responsibility and works real well.

As to whether or not the shot was released - yes, it's the trail's responsibility (although in a play like this, he may need help from the lead).

The foul, however, being before or after the horn rests entirely with the official calling the foul. There's no way that the trail can see exactly what contact merited the foul and whether or not that was before the horn. Remember - the whistle may be close (or even a fraction of a second after), but it does not mean that the foul was after the horn!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by coachmjw
It is obvious that some officials in this group feel attacked when a question is asked by a coach.

Nah,what pisses us off is when people who claim that they are officials make comments like yours.We just take for granted that the majority of coaches don't know the rules,and we make allowances for them.

[eventnyc]

In my first season as an official, I had a similar situation happen to me. I believe I may have posted my experience on this board four years ago. I, as the trail, observed a fast break (one on one) coming down towards the lead. The lead was on the opposite side of the break and made it to the end line. I was no more than fifteen feet away from the two players driving the left side of the lane. As the offensive player went up to layup the ball, the defensive player hit his arm just prior to the release. The hit was ever so slight however there was definite contact. The horn and my whistle sounded at the same time as the ball went toward the rim. In my opinion, that foul caused the miss. We cleared the lane and the free throw won the game. On the way back to the locker room my partner told me that the call took a lot of balls to make. I was a rookie and was somewhat disappointed that he said that. I explained that I saw the fould and called it. He told me he wasn't questioning my observance of the foul, just my calling it with practically no time left on the clock. I haven't changed my thinking. I'd still call it today. Why would we as officials, penalize the offensive player who is attempting to win a game with a last minute attempt and not call a foul? Like I said, in my opinion that slight contact threw the shot off course.

[Nevadaref]

I've been reading so much about whether or not the foul occured before or after the horn and am surprised that it hasn't been made clear that during a try it doesn't matter. Tony did say something close.

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Also, was the shooter airborne? If so, it doesn't matter whether the foul occurred prior to the horn or not. An airborne shooter can be fouled, or can foul, until he returns to the floor.

Actually, any player, airborne or not, can commit a foul or be fouled after the horn, but during the time that a try is still in progress since the ball is still live. Of course, the shot must have beeen released before the horn, but any fouls that occur during this time frame should be charged and penalized according to 5-6-3b. Now if the player who is fouled is not the shooter, or if the shooter is no longer airborne, this would be a common foul and the number of team fouls would determine whether or not free throws are awarded.
By the description of the play, it seems that a try, which turned out to be unsuccessful, was in flight when the foul occured. So whether it happened before or after the horn doesn't matter. The official was correct to penalize the foul.