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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 18, 2002, 11:13pm
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Re: Re: Re: APHP

Quote:
Originally posted by dhodges007
What about foul outs and injuries and only having four eligible players? Going to T that situation? [/B]
No. That situation is dealt with in the next article:

Art. 2. Each team may continue to play with fewer than five players when all other squad members are not eligible or able to play.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 12:26am
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Re: 4 players

This is what a local supervisor told me. The ball should not be put in play with only 4 on the floor. If the ball becomes live and the 5th player runs on the floor the ball is whistled dead and a T is issued. If the ball is live the 5th player must wait at the scorers table for the next dead ball to enter. This has been said but I thought I would throw my 2 cents in!
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 09:09am
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I have heard from two or three guys ringing them up for delay. Don't we still issue a warning for delay before wacking them? To jump right to a T and say it was for delay would be a gross mis-application of the rule IMO.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 09:15am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Watson
I have heard from two or three guys ringing them up for delay. Don't we still issue a warning for delay before wacking them? To jump right to a T and say it was for delay would be a gross mis-application of the rule IMO.
There are only three official warnings for delay (NFHS):

1) Crossing the boundary plane on a throw-in
2) Huddling before a free-throw
3) Interfering with the ball after a made basket.

You can, umm, "discuss" with the coach the need to have everyone return to the court, but you can't Warn (note the initial Cap) them.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 10:51am
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Wouldn't huddling, be the same as this? You are preventing the game from continuing?

Bottom line, I don't even know why we would be dicussing a T in this situation.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 11:14am
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Brian

I agree with you. I would be hard pressed for anyone to convince me that a "T" is within the rules but even the "right thing" to do.

The post above about a supervisor saying that the player "must wait" till he is motioned in is not only wrong but silly.

The ONLY reason the player would need to be beckoned is if he is a substitute that had not been in the game legally. Then one could argue that it is a sub.

If the player had entered during say a time out, then he can come off the bench at any time (barring the old "hanging chad" where we are intentionally hiding on the bench)and be legal.

Even supervisors make dumb statements.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 12:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Watson
Wouldn't huddling, be the same as this? You are preventing the game from continuing?

Bottom line, I don't even know why we would be dicussing a T in this situation.
No, it's not the same -- use the resuming of play procedure and the game continues.

If, then 4 players leave the bench and "a while later" the 5th leaves, it's a T. That's clear from the case book.

What isn't clear is what to do if the 5th stays on the bench, or reports to the table. PLay with 4? Issue a T? I vote for the former, absent any "official" ruling.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 01:21pm
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5th player must wait

Ok,

In the case book on 10.1.9 It says "Following a charged timeout Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. 4 players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts and unsuccessfull three pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. Ruling: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission."

Also in 10.3.4 is show were the 5th player must wait to be beckoned in. It says.

"After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only 4 players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly ono the court without reporting or without being beckoned. Ruling: A Technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced."

So I guess my supervisor was right??
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 02:38pm
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Re: 5th player must wait

Quote:
Originally posted by okieofficial
Ok,

In the case book on 10.1.9 It says "Following a charged timeout Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. 4 players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts and unsuccessfull three pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. Ruling: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission."

Also in 10.3.4 is show were the 5th player must wait to be beckoned in. It says.

"After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only 4 players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly ono the court without reporting or without being beckoned. Ruling: A Technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced."

So I guess my supervisor was right??
In both of those sitches, the T is issued after a player enters the floor. If they wait until a deadball, and enter legally, I still don't see a sub.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 02:47pm
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Re: Re: 5th player must wait

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Watson
I still don't see a sub. [/B]
Right if A5 waits until the ball becomes dead or the coach calls a timeout he can enter with no penalty. I don't inderstand what you mean by "I still don't see a sub" though.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 02:52pm
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Re: Brian

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim C

If the player had entered during say a time out, then he can come off the bench at any time (barring the old "hanging chad" where we are intentionally hiding on the bench)and be legal.
Tim, I disagree with what you said above. According to the rule book all 5 players must return to the floor at about the same time. The 5th player can't sit on the bench for 30 seconds then sprint on the floor.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 03:09pm
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Okie

And I am moving towards your view, HOWEVER, what appears to be an issue is timing.

I guess (fully admitting mistakes is something I try to do if necessary) what I pictured was the proverbial player rushing out after a short section of play.

I will always follow Bob Jenkins interpretations when it comes to FEDlandia (basketball or baseball) because he lives in those sporting worlds.

It is my personal view that a player "hiding" off the court and a player failing to recognize that he should be in the game are two different issues.

I will stand corrected that FED wants the Technical foul for just about any violation of this issue.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 03:20pm
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Smile I agree

I agree that there is a difference between hiding and not knowing. Unfortuantly the "book" doesn't allow for that.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 19, 2002, 03:35pm
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Exclamation State difference

Tim, here is something that I was wanting your opinion on. Marvin Barbee is the State Supervisor for Oklahoma in a meeting with him this year, he made a suggestion that if a team B breaks a huddle with 4 players and he try to put the ball in play. He wanted us to call a T the minute Team A takes possession of the ball for a delay of game. What is your thought on this. I think that it might be a little harsh especially with out a warning first.
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