Travelling - or not travelling?

[Schmidt MJ]

Let's try one more angle to this scenario. Say the player has not used his dribble yet, lifts his pivot and can find no one to pass to. With his pivot foot still off the floor he begins his dribble. Is this a "delayed" travel call since the ball needs to leave the players hand on a dribble before the pivot foot is lifted?

[bob jenkins]

quote:

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Originally posted by Schmidt MJ:
Let's try one more angle to this scenario. Say the player has not used his dribble yet, lifts his pivot and can find no one to pass to. With his pivot foot still off the floor he begins his dribble. Is this a "delayed" travel call since the ball needs to leave the players hand on a dribble before the pivot foot is lifted?

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It's a travel call, but it's not "delayed". As soon as the violation occurs, it's called.

[ronjay42]

quote:

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Originally posted by DrC.:
David, I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like you are describing a fall-away jump shot. I mean if you have the ball and you step back with your non pivot foot and lift your pivot foot as you are releasing the ball its good as long as the pivot foot doesn't touch down before the ball is released (like a reverse drop step).
If your mean he steps back with the non pivot foot and then moves the pivot foot (touches down) then shoots - it is clearly a WALK.

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How about those Panthers from Camden HS led by the # Junior in the country. Did you ever see him play?

[ronjay42]

quote:

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Originally posted by DrC.:
David, I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like you are describing a fall-away jump shot. I mean if you have the ball and you step back with your non pivot foot and lift your pivot foot as you are releasing the ball its good as long as the pivot foot doesn't touch down before the ball is released (like a reverse drop step).
If your mean he steps back with the non pivot foot and then moves the pivot foot (touches down) then shoots - it is clearly a WALK.

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How about those Panthers from Camden HS led by the # Junior in the country. Did you ever see him play?

[beancenzo]

Although I am not a referee, I agree 100% that this should be a travel, and thus called. I watch mostly NBA and some college and it disgusts me how everyone always travels.

It puts everyone on the same playing field if the rules were followed. You probably can't do much for the pro players, but you can still call it on those college players and younger.

[BBALL21]

This reply is in regards to the original question of the traveling at the 3 pt. line. This is something I've been noticing for a while which originated in the NBA. A good example is to watch Alan Houston catch the ball at the 3 pt. line. Every time, he catches it on his left and switches to his right. This has never been regulated in the NBA and filtered down to the NCAA and NFHS. I see it all the time in my D I games. I have called it and learned quickly to ignore. The fact is, we are the only ones who notice it. Traveling has become a call that seems to only result in a crowd reaction or obvious action. Not that I agree with the direction it's going, but I want to keep my job...and it's as simple as that! Stay with the 4 basics and you can't go wrong: Stay in your Primary, Trust your Partner, Referee the Defense and CALL THE OBVIOUS!!!

[Duck1]

Wait a moment. I am something of a novice here, but I don't think that is a travel. In basketball, you are allowed to pivot on one foot (keeping it in contact with the ground and not dragging it), and move the opposing foot as many times as desired. If, however, the player elects to pick up the pivot foot, he may not place again down without a traveling violation. This makes two manuevers legal:

Jump shot
Layup

In both cases, a player has lifted his pivot foot after establishing it. In either case, if the player were to replace his pivot foot, he would be traveling. In other words, the standard for traveling is not the act of lifting the pivot foot, but replacing it.

Using that logic, a player attempting the often cited series of moves cited in this thread of stradling the 3 point line and shooting off his non-pivot foot is doing nothing more than a layup style series of steps from 22 feet from the goal.

Could this be why the officials at high levels aren't calling it?

- Duck

[Hawks Coach]

Duck -

This thread has dealt with a lot of what ifs, and in the scenario you describe, it is not a travel. In the one we have seen, a player is cutting out from the basket, does a one two stop, with the inside foot (obviously) touching first, the outside foot second. The player is still back to the basket, has by rule established the inside foot as the pivot, and has the pivot foot inside the three point line. He immediately pivots using the outside foot to get his other foot into three point territory. He establishes a triple threat position facing the basket, both feet on the floor ouside the three point line. Clearly a travel. Happens every D1 game I watch.

I agree with the BBALL21, however, that D1 refs probably can't call this every time down the floor. The only thing that would eliminate this is someone in authority wanting it to be a point of emphasis. As a coach, with this being a set part of offense, it leaves me wondering what I should teach my guards and small forwards as I prepare them for HS play. This maneuver is fundamentally wrong, but has become basic footwork for shooters who have to work hard to get free for a three.

[walter]

Duck: The move being talked about here is the player catching the ball with his/her right foot inside the three point arc touching down first, then the left foot touching down outside the arc. The player then steps back with the right foot, places it on the ground outside the arc, and shooting the ball. Once the right foot touched down, it became the pivot foot. Once lifted and placed back down again, travel. It is not very often that you see a player lift the right foot and jump in the air or shoot off of one foot (the left) as you describe. Most times, and I agree it is often not called (why I'm not sure), is right foot down, then left foot down, step back with the right, step and shoot. This is a travel.

[Duck1]

Oh, well, I was reading it as the pivot foot never being placed again. If the pivot foot is replaced as in the triple threat pose, it would clearly be a walk at that point. Who doesn't call this? More to the point, why?

- Duck

[Hawks Coach]

quote:

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Originally posted by Duck1:
Oh, well, I was reading it as the pivot foot never being placed again. If the pivot foot is replaced as in the triple threat pose, it would clearly be a walk at that point. Who doesn't call this? More to the point, why?

- Duck

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Walter, Duck

There was another thread where D1 evaluations were discussed. One commenter told of his experiences at a camp where he called everything he saw in the first half, only to be told by his evaluators to lay off the trivial stuff and to call what truly matters. I think that, at least in part, it interferes with the flow of the game if you call everything. It is not clear to me what should be considered little or big. I guess that comes from the experience that these D1 folks have, and is why they make D1 and others do not.

I think the more difficult thing is, as certain regular violations begin to be accepted, knowing how to coach at the lower levels. We work footwork for the cut catch pivot and shoot, and have always pushed our players to do it right by the book. The game is different when you allow that extra step, especially against a tight defense. The illegal maneuver cited in this thread allows one extra moment to get the three point shot off because you step away from the defender. Near the sieline, especially on some HS courts, it is a little bit safer pass because you don't have to catch with both feet outside the arc.