Tennessee fires Bruce Pearl

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is really my point. Does it matter that Pearl's actions started the investigation, but he did not alone penalize the program. Blame the NCAA for their woes, not an opposing coach that is basically going for the same players.

Peace

Trust me, there's plenty of feelings about the NCAA and the process. But again, I point out the method that Pearl used - taping a phone converstaion without the other person's knowledge, then using an apparently doctored version of it to start problems for a rival school. At best, it's borderline illegal.

As to his claims that he was simply trying "right the wrongs" of a rival school, and he is simply a "whistle-blower", maybe he doesn't lie about things like that. Oh, wait...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by WreckRef

Looking at this from a neutral standpoint because I don't care about Pearl or his history or the Illini, look at what you said.

To me it sounds like you are saying, yes everybody is doing it and that's not why we're mad, we're mad because we got caught and it's Pearl's fault.

So Illini fans are blaming him for something that would never had happened if they hadn't cheated in the first place? Sounds like passing the buck rather than owning up to it.

Just my $.02 and I'm putting on my fire proof suit as we speak...

I don't think that's the feeling in general. (At least not in my case.) If IL did something wrong, they should be penalized. But everyone should be penalized. I'm not talking about other schools and minor infractions - that's like complaining to the officer who pulls you over for speeding that everyone else is doing it too. I'm talking about the informant that uses an illegal wiretap to call the police about an on-going major crime, then the police break in without a warrant and find the crime isn't happening, but while they're there, they find some marijuana cigarettes in the ashtray. How far would that case get in the court system? Cool, possession is wrong and should be punished. But so should the informant that used the illegal wiretap, and so should the cops who busted in without probable cause. That's the difference in the feeling around here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by WreckRef

Looking at this from a neutral standpoint because I don't care about Pearl or his history or the Illini, look at what you said.

To me it sounds like you are saying, yes everybody is doing it and that's not why we're mad, we're mad because we got caught and it's Pearl's fault.

So Illini fans are blaming him for something that would never had happened if they hadn't cheated in the first place? Sounds like passing the buck rather than owning up to it.

Just my $.02 and I'm putting on my fire proof suit as we speak...

+1

But I'm a Hawkeye fan and found the entire scenario amusing.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Trust me, there's plenty of feelings about the NCAA and the process. But again, I point out the method that Pearl used - taping a phone converstaion without the other person's knowledge, then using an apparently doctored version of it to start problems for a rival school. At best, it's borderline illegal.

As to his claims that he was simply trying "right the wrongs" of a rival school, and he is simply a "whistle-blower", maybe he doesn't lie about things like that. Oh, wait...

OK, but if you are clean then you do not have to worry about it. This was not a court of law; this was something that lead to an investigation with the NCAA. Sorry, but I am not seeing what the outrage is if they did not get caught. If anyone you need to be mad at it is not Pearl, but the NCAA.

As you know I am a big Michigan fan and I do not get upset at anyone for what happened with the Fab 5. And it appears that what Michigan and even Webber was accused of was not as cut and dry as many wanted to make it. That feeling of anger or disappointment is more about the NCAA, not people who blew the whistle on the activities, which happened to be the Federal Government that was investigating a guy and where he got his money and who he gave it to.

The actions of the University and their coaches got them in trouble, not some guy that taped a conversation in another program. I guess it just makes "ya'll" feel better by ragging on Pearl and trying to make some connection with this current situation. And when Pearl lands on his feet elsewhere and with probably a better job, then what are the Illini faithful going to say then?

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I don't think that's the feeling in general. (At least not in my case.) If IL did something wrong, they should be penalized. But everyone should be penalized. I'm not talking about other schools and minor infractions - that's like complaining to the officer who pulls you over for speeding that everyone else is doing it too. I'm talking about the informant that uses an illegal wiretap to call the police about an on-going major crime, then the police break in without a warrant and find the crime isn't happening, but while they're there, they find some marijuana cigarettes in the ashtray. How far would that case get in the court system? Cool, possession is wrong and should be punished. But so should the informant that used the illegal wiretap, and so should the cops who busted in without probable cause. That's the difference in the feeling around here.

If Pearl's tape was illegal, isn't it up to UI to press for charges? IIRC, he wasn't even so much as reprimanded from that angle.

I've got no love for Pearl, although there was a time I would have been happy to see him coaching at Iowa. His behavior towards the high school officials in TN turned me off of him in a hurry.

As for your question:
1st, wouldn't happen. If it did, the evidence would have been thrown out.

The difference, of course, is that the NCAA doesn't operate under the same rules of evidence and presumption of innocence as the US Justice System. More like Haazard County, IMO.

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am on a site of HS and Illini fans and they never seem to let it go. But then again that is what Illini fans do, worry about things that have no relevance to them. They are still holding onto why Self left their program 8 years ago.

Peace

Talk about painting with a broad brush. I, personally, have no problems whatsoever with Bill Self.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

As you know I am a big Michigan fan and I do not get upset at anyone for what happened with the Fab 5. And it appears that what Michigan and even Webber was accused of was not as cut and dry as many wanted to make it.

It wasn't cut and dried? Do you know something we don't know? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Webber get fined through the legal system for those loans, also get suspended by the NBA for them, get his 1993 All-American honors removed and ordered not to associate with the Michigan program until 2013? Not to mention having Michigan's records removed completely from the 1992 & 93 Final Fours?

None of that happened?

Note I didn't even mention recent Michigan football.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ILRef80

Talk about painting with a broad brush. I, personally, have no problems whatsoever with Bill Self.

First of all I am not painting anything with a broad brush. Even the media focused on the issue of Self and what he did at Illinois and Self had to make it clear "That was 8 years ago." It seems to be a major focus of Illinois fans and what he meant or did not mean to the program. Also it is talked about a lot in Illini discussion boards and other things when the Illini program is a topic. When Kansas won a title a couple of years ago you would have thought that Self betrayed them. Again you do not have to believe me, but I have never seen a fan base talk about things in the past as if they have direct influence today. Even Weber cannot be judged on his own but by what Self had and why he made the Final Four.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It wasn't cut and dried? Do you know something we don't know? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Webber get fined through the legal system for those loans, also get suspended by the NBA for them, get his 1993 All-American honors removed and ordered not to associate with the Michigan program until 2013? Not to mention having Michigan's records removed completely from the 1992 & 93 Final Fours?

None of that happened?

You obviously do not understand the point I was making. If you watched the ESPN Documentary that premiered over a week ago about the "Fab 5" you would have seen that the participants and even those that covered the team and the program are not totally convinced that Weber took money while at school. And according to Jalen Rose, who lived in the same community of Weber and Martin said that much of the accusations directed toward Martin were not associated with the Michigan program. Rose made it clear that Martin did things for kids throughout the community and not just players that went to a particular school or even were college players. And reporter Mitch Album (sp?) that was close to the situation claimed that if Webber was getting money while at Michigan, he sure was hiding it very well with the car he drove and the clothes he had on his back or the place he lived. So the issues do not seem cut and dry to those that witnessed the events. Album's assertion is that Weber left school after his sophomore year because he was not getting and benefit to what he and his teammates were bringing to the school and Nike specifically.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Note I didn't even mention recent Michigan football.

And this means what? You can mention it all you like and the reason that coach is now gone. I doubt seriously that anyone in 5 years will be complaining about what happen as the reason the program is up or down. What happened with Pearl was over 20 years ago. If Rich Rod lost another job I can tell you I would be surprised that anyone at Michigan would care or hope that it happens. Illini fans are not only mad that the program is where it is today, but they claim to still be mad that a certain coach never got the job as if the investigation is the only reason that coach ended up at UIC. I am not assuming this, I have asked many for what they think and it seems to come back to what happen a long time ago when this coach is brought up. It does not have to be all that feel this way, but the ones that believe this are very vocal.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You obviously do not understand the point I was making. If you watched the ESPN Documentary that premiered over a week ago about the "Fab 5" you would have seen that the participants and even those that covered the team and the program are not totally convinced that Weber took money while at school. And according to Jalen Rose, who lived in the same community of Weber and Martin said that much of the accusations directed toward Martin were not associated with the Michigan program. Rose made it clear that Martin did things for kids throughout the community and not just players that went to a particular school or even were college players. And reporter Mitch Album (sp?) that was close to the situation claimed that if Webber was getting money while at Michigan, he sure was hiding it very well with the car he drove and the clothes he had on his back or the place he lived. So the issues do not seem cut and dry to those that witnessed the events. Album's assertion is that Weber left school after his sophomore year because he was not getting and benefit to what he and his teammates were bringing to the school and Nike specifically.

Jalen Rose is a trusted source? Jalen Rose? THE Jalen Rose?

Bu-wa-ha-ha-ha.....

Again, are you freaking serious? By his own admission, Webber started taking money when he was in junior high school. The MHSAA wanted to expunge all his high school records too, but Webber's high school refused to do it and the MHSAA didn't have the power to do it themselves.

Soooooo, Webber admitted himself that he took money but others think he was lying. Got it.

Webber was charged with lying to a Grand Jury. He pleaded guilty and was fined $100,000. Yup, he pled "guilty". Whatinthehell is more convincing than pleading guilty?

Maybe you should check some facts, Jeff, before getting on your high horse. Google is your friend.

Chris Webber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's just one source.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It does not have to be all that feel this way, but the ones that believe this are very vocal.

I don't disagree here. However, just because they're vocal doesn't mean they're the majority. Just ask a union member.

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all I am not painting anything with a broad brush. Even the media focused on the issue of Self and what he did at Illinois and Self had to make it clear "That was 8 years ago." It seems to be a major focus of Illinois fans and what he meant or did not mean to the program. Also it is talked about a lot in Illini discussion boards and other things when the Illini program is a topic. When Kansas won a title a couple of years ago you would have thought that Self betrayed them. Again you do not have to believe me, but I have never seen a fan base talk about things in the past as if they have direct influence today. Even Weber cannot be judged on his own but by what Self had and why he made the Final Four.

Peace

The media isn't the most credible source. Of course they are looking for stories and sometimes fabricate the drama. I understand that there is still a section of the fanbase that feels spurned, but that doesn't make it the majority. That's the only point I was trying to make.

At any rate, that's not really the topic so I'll won't delve into it any further.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If Pearl's tape was illegal, isn't it up to UI to press for charges? IIRC, he wasn't even so much as reprimanded from that angle.

From what I remember, the laws in IA were/are different than IL about wiretapping, and thus it would've been a difficult prosecution based on jurisdictions, available evidence, etc.

The whole process was started as a result of Pearl having a tape of a recruit admitting that IL offered him a specific amount of cash, and a car. How much more of a major violation can there be? This isn't accidentally speaking to a recruit on the wrong day of the week. Play the tape in a news conference and IL will be knocked back down to Division 3 status. But yet, none of that was part of the final findings. Not a single mention. Even with the NCAA's version of justice. How come?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The difference, of course, is that the NCAA doesn't operate under the same rules of evidence and presumption of innocence as the US Justice System. More like Haazard County, IMO.

Agreed, hence the same disdain for the NCAA. I believe the NCAA even said outright in their news conference that even though they couldn't prove anything, they still felt IL was guilty. If that isn't Hazzard Co.-like, I don't know what is...

[M&M Guy]

Oh, and Jeff - if it's not right to dislike a person that does your team wrong over time, how come I never see you wearing a red sweater vest?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

From what I remember, the laws in IA were/are different than IL about wiretapping, and thus it would've been a difficult prosecution based on jurisdictions, available evidence, etc.

The whole process was started as a result of Pearl having a tape of a recruit admitting that IL offered him a specific amount of cash, and a car. How much more of a major violation can there be? This isn't accidentally speaking to a recruit on the wrong day of the week. Play the tape in a news conference and IL will be knocked back down to Division 3 status. But yet, none of that was part of the final findings. Not a single mention. Even with the NCAA's version of justice. How come?

Because Thomas was smart enough to have a plausible explanation.
or
He was proven to be telling the truth. Doesn't really matter too much.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Agreed, hence the same disdain for the NCAA. I believe the NCAA even said outright in their news conference that even though they couldn't prove anything, they still felt IL was guilty. If that isn't Hazzard Co.-like, I don't know what is...

Like I said, I don't remember much about it except fans shaking their car keys at Carver Hawkeye Arena and vague talk of the possibility of batteries (representing the tape recorder) being thrown on the floor if Pearl went to the game at Illinois. Hawkeye fans found the whole thing amusing. I do remember there being some question of legality regarding the tapes, too.

But I had more important things on my mind when I was 16.