2011 Tournament Discussion Redux

[Jurassic Referee]

As per John Adams, a 5-second call is the same as any other judgment call. And istant replay wouldn't be applicable because you couldn't get conclusive evidence, not knowing the quickness of the count.

Head of officials defends NCAA tournament officiating - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

Makes sense to me.

[biz]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As per John Adams, a 5-second call is the same as any other judgment call. And istant replay wouldn't be applicable because you couldn't get conclusive evidence, not knowing the quickness of the count.

Head of officials defends NCAA tournament officiating - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

Makes sense to me.

I agree in part, but the whole idea of the visible count is to show that the official is counting and the arm swings give an idea of how fast or slow the official's count is. Adams' explaination does not go into the mechanics of making the 5-second call without 5 arm swings.

This is an extreme parallel example, but what if an official called a 5-second closely guarded violation without making any arm swings but he says that he counted to 5 in his head? IMO, while the violation might be the correct call the official has made a grave mistake in mechanics. We have mechanics for consistency and clarity and it's important for us as officials to be mechanically sound.

Dick Cartmell is a great official and is usually working on the 2nd weekend of the tournament. If we don't see him I would guess that it would be because of this play, but my guess is that he will work a game this weekend.

[APG]

Originally Posted by biz

This is an extreme parallel example, but what if an official called a 5-second closely guarded violation without making any arm swings but he says that he counted to 5 in his head? IMO, while the violation might be the correct call the official has made a grave mistake in mechanics. We have mechanics for consistency and clarity and it's important for us as officials to be mechanically sound.

I would say this situation is even worse. If we didn't swing in this situation, the coach and player would assume a player wasn't within the required distance. I also agree that Adams has failed to talk about the mechanics of the play. You can say you counted to five, but when you're required to show your count to five and the tape doesn't support it, it's hard to support you.

[jophyal]

I agree with the mechanics angle. If the call was made and mechanics were proper, a referee could state that. Hiding behind 80% rule, making up rules, and/or guessing short changes us all. Players, fans, officials, etc... would be better served if the calling official made a statement and stuck by it. Jim Joyce made a call, stated it was the best call he could make, and took his medicine like a MAN. Why is it so hard to admit that we, as officials, kick one every now and then. The ego of some of these Confereneces and officials is exactly why people are clammering for instant replay and gaining ground. Look at NFL's rule change yesterday concerning all scores being able to be reviewed without challenges. Just sayin'...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jophyal

Jim Joyce made a call, stated it was the best call he could make, and took his medicine like a MAN. Why is it so hard to admit that we, as officials, kick one every now and then. The ego of some of these Confereneces and officials is exactly why people are clammering for instant replay and gaining ground. Look at NFL's rule change yesterday concerning all scores being able to be reviewed without challenges. Just sayin'...

And afaik Dick Cartmell honestly believed he made the correct call on this play as per his own personal 5-second count. Do you know something different that we don't know?

It was a judgment call. Officials are human, not robots. Do you honestly believe there is any mechanic anywhere that would make every D1 official's count come out to exactly 5.0 seconds every single time?

Instead of questioning Cartmell's judgment on one particular call, you chose instead to indict his character for not admitting a possible mistake in judgment. Well, that's just wrong imo.

Just saying...

[Jay R]

Jim Joyce made the call he thought was correct. He say the replay and admitted that he missed it.

Cartmell made the call he thought was correct. I'm assuming he's since seen the replay that shows he never got to 5 seconds. He has not admitted to his mistake.

That's the difference.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Cartmell made the call he thought was correct. I'm assuming he's since seen the replay that shows he never got to 5 seconds. He has not admitted to his mistake.

And you know that....how?

Afaik the NCAA tries to keep anything like that in-house.

[jophyal]

why do they try to keep it "in house"? I am not indicting anyone. I am making a point. If you do not agree, that is your choice. I never insinuateed that there is a perfect 5 count. However, if you can't count to five or know you are between four and five, that is an issue. My point of contingency was that instead of saying that was HIS five count and leave it at that, we have people coming up with guesses as to whether there is still a rule disallowing a player to call timeout between four and five seconds. The NCAA just admitted that there was a mistake in the Syracuse game... was that kept in house? I read, on this site, all the complaints of coaches and fans hollering about "over the back" fouls aand the fact there is no for for that. But when another official asks about a non exixtent rule concerning the granting of a timeout, it's different because you feel like we are puting a fellow official in the grease. I have yet to hearor read anything concerning the ball being handed to player instead of tossed. What about that mechanic? has anyone factored that into his count?

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And you know that....how?

Afaik the NCAA tries to keep anything like that in-house.

Do you mean that he has not admitted his mistake. Not publicly. If Joyce had admitted his mistake only to his superiors, he would not have had the support he did form the public.

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by jophyal

I agree with the mechanics angle. If the call was made and mechanics were proper, a referee could state that. Hiding behind 80% rule, making up rules, and/or guessing short changes us all. Players, fans, officials, etc... would be better served if the calling official made a statement and stuck by it. Jim Joyce made a call, stated it was the best call he could make, and took his medicine like a MAN. Why is it so hard to admit that we, as officials, kick one every now and then. The ego of some of these Confereneces and officials is exactly why people are clammering for instant replay and gaining ground. Look at NFL's rule change yesterday concerning all scores being able to be reviewed without challenges. Just sayin'...

+1. We are humans and we can make mistakes. I think everyone understands that. It just hurts our credibility when we fail to admit a mistake.

Cartmell is an excellent official. This blown call doesn't change that. But, c'mon, in a game and spot of that magnitude, your arm swings have to match your count. It's really that simple, IMO. I think he may have gotten caught up in the moment...who knows? It happens. But, that doesn't change the fact that a mistake was probably made.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILRef80

+1. We are humans and we can make mistakes. I think everyone understands that. It just hurts our credibility when we fail to admit a mistake.

Cartmell is an excellent official. This blown call doesn't change that. But, c'mon, in a game and spot of that magnitude, your arm swings have to match your count. It's really that simple, IMO. I think he may have gotten caught up in the moment...who knows? It happens. But, that doesn't change the fact that a mistake was made.

Seriously? You think he should come on ESPN with a huge mea culpa? Really?

Wow.

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Seriously? You think he should come on ESPN with a huge mea culpa? Really?

Wow.

Not at all. But, I don't think he should have referred to the 5 second count in his head. All I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, you don't make that call until you complete the 5th arm swing. It's such a crucial call, why not err on the side of having your mechanics match your call? I mean, isn't that why we provide visible counts in the first place?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILRef80

Not at all. But, I don't think he should have referred to the 5 second count in his head. All I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, you don't make that call until you complete the 5th arm swing. It's such a crucial call, why not err on the side of having your mechanics match your call? I mean, isn't that why we provide visible counts in the first place?

But you were giving a +1 to a post that, what, says he should have come out and announced his error a la Jim Joyce?

Or are you agreeing that people here were hiding behind the old 80% rule.

I found both comments to indicate a lack of reading comprehension; or he just skimmed the entire thread before commenting.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by biz

Adams' explaination does not go into the mechanics of making the 5-second call without 5 arm swings.

Interesting point except that his arm with up halfway through the 5th swing....which is exactly the point the violation should occur. The big problem was that his first swing occur much less than 1 second after the player got the ball....that is where they player was shorted.