How to deal with bad refs
 

First time to the site.

I'm a coach for a rec league and the refs in the league are well known to favor certain players/teams to the point that even the teams being favored admit it after the fact to my players.

I'm not trying to say that it's all the refs because there's quite a few instances where the kids are just caught up in other fouls or try to explain away their mistakes with the refs. I'm talking about clear instances where the following types of things occur

- Kid goes up for layup and the defender comes across his legs and the kid's momentum changed to the point that he almost got hurt - no call with the ref standing in front of it.

- no call on one side of the court and we're called for the same action (granted by a different ref) on the other side (see question below concerning this).

- Kid gets slapped across the arm and when I ask for an explanation of how the ref couldn't call it I'm told "it was all ball and your kid is just soft"

I also am wondering if I'm imagining this or not. Isn't there a rule where the refs don't officiate the same side after halftime? I've noticed that the same ref always positions himself on our offensive side of the ball and it's consistent enough to not be coincidence.

What's interesting to me is that this year we're winning in spite of this situation. I'm just trying to get some feedback and opinions from other people.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Have the "league administrator" look at it and talk to the refs if needed.

Are the refs ever favoring your team and players or is it just your opponents? Do other coaches ever complain that your team gets a call on one end but his team doesn't get the same call? Have you ever noticed that your team gets the benefit of a bad call?

But I digress, bottom line is that if you want better refs your league needs to pay more money for officials.

Can't disagree with the better pay comment. And no there's never favoritism to my team. It's not really about my team as much as it's about the favoritism shown to two teams and all others get the treatment I'm concerned with.

Until this year our team was the doormat of the league and the refs wouldn't call fouls where blood was drawn from fingernails across skin because we were down by 30 and what was the point? The refs wanted to get to their car. I got a T on that one and was threatened with the ref ending the game if I didn't cut it out which was laughable because we were already down 30 with 2minutes left in the game. I deserved the T but my rule was the kids weren't allowed to complain to the refs so I had to stick up for him on it.

I'm considering talking to the league administrator about it however I think I'm going to have to wait until after the championship game. I just wanted to see what others think and what advice they might have about it.

Always listen to Bob

What do you pay your officials? Are your officials certified by the state? You want better officiating, you'll have to pay for it.

We are all one sided and on the take. Go find a Coaches forum:cool:

Also what about the question of whether refs are supposed to switch sides at halftime or if it's up to them? I just don't know that answer but seem to remember that there's a rule on it.

Pay as I understand it is $30-35 per game where the refs have two to three games twice per week. The officials are certified by the state however they ref at lower levels than what they're ref'ing in this leage.

wfd21 - I can appreciate that you don't want to answer but why would I go to a coach to answer a question that deals directly with a referee, the rules they follow (or are supposed to follow), and how they interpret them? Kinda seems like asking a nun what sex is like if you ask me.

This question really doesn't make any sense. An official is either Lead (offensive team's endline) or Trail (near division line). Game action, time-outs, violations, fouls, and transition will cause an official's position to change.

Are you saying in your league an official stays on one half of the court during all the action?

Officials don't switch at half time. It will depend on your state/area as they may adapt/change the mechanics as prescribed by NFHS. Generally, you'll get switches on fouls in the frontcourt. Usually there won't be in any long switches (officials changing positions on a foul in the backcourt with no free throws). There also may be times where the officials decide to force a switch for whatever reason. Now the fact that this is "rec ball" and not "real ball" means some will take some liberties with switching and my not follow it to a tee.

As far as the level of officials you get, a lot of times, depending on the level you are coaching, means you're not necessarily receiving the best of the best or you are getting a lot of the newer officials which means there will be a lot of mistakes just like there is with the players.

Working for a rec league is not greatly desired by many officials. The pay is generally lousy, the play not so wonderful, and the yelling from the fans/coaches/parents is mostly a pain. So many better officials pass on working these leagues. However, that doesn't mean that your league can't be a positive.

What are the ages of the players in your league?
Are you using refs certified by the state association who work HS games?
You say the pay is $30-35 per game. That's decent for a rec league.
The refs are supposed to switch positions on each foul, but most do not when working a rec league game. Many don't even when working HS games.
It is simply being lazy.

In the end, you get what you pay for as well as who will come to the environment that you create. If it is a negative experience, then expect lower level officials to be the only ones willing to come out.

What I'm saying is that the lead ref, when we're in the offensive zone, switches at halftime so that he's the lead ref in the second half when we're in the offensive zone. When we go to our defensive zone he becomes the trail and it stays this way throughout the game.

The trail, when we're in our offensive zone, never calls anything that he deems to be the lead ref's call and has explained this to me several times however when he becomes the lead ref when we're on our defensive zone he calls those fouls as it's now "his call".

What I'm frustrated with is that we always have the same lead ref when we're in our offensive zone.

And ultimately what I'm trying to get at and seems to have been answered is whether there's a rule about this or if it's discretionary.

I do not even know what you are talking about. There is no rule that says anything like this. Now we have "mechanics" that dictate some movement or positioning, but considering that this is a wreck league, I am sure no regular mechanics are being followed when an official is paid so low and they are probably doing multiple games in one night. Again, you get what you pay for.

If you have not noticed (and appears you have not), you are getting a lot of sarcastic answers. It is not about not wanting to answer your question; there is no way to answer your questions here. For one no one knows what happens on these plays or saw them. I do not know the officials or know why a foul was called in one situation and not called in another situation. Also a slap on the wrist is not a "foul" by rule. That contact might have been minimal or not put the player at a disadvantage. Heck, none of us were there to know for sure.

The best advice is either bring us tape of the plays so that we can see what really took place or go to a coach's forum so all you can complain about how bad officials are all over the place and you will feel better in the end. But at this point and the way you approached this issue here I doubt you are going to get and real answers you seem to be looking for.

Peace

Assuming you have a two-man crew, officials are supposed to switch lead and trail duties after every foul. Granted, in the off-season, and particularly with running clocks, some switches may be skipped to move the game along. However, if crews aren't switching at all, that's a problem.

That's not bad for off-season, at least around here. Has anybody given some feedback to these officials? I don't know how many times I've personally heard "good job" or "great job," only to wind up with ratings that don't quite match that feel-good feedback.

Thanks for the response.

To answer your questions....

What are the ages of the players in your league? - 15-18
Are you using refs certified by the state association who work HS games? - I'm told yes and they have the association patches that other refs have.

I can't disagree with you on the environment aspect of it because that's true which also probably explains why the ones that will come favor the teams that fit the environment. We beat one of those teams yesterday in a very physical game with a lot of pushing and the opposite team only had 3 fouls at the end of the 2nd half and the fans were still yelling that they were cheated and more fouls should have been called on us.

I've noticed quite well. That doesn't change that I came here for an honest reason and am getting the answers I'm looking for while having to read between the lines in a few areas. I'm not asking for you to "side with me" and say my refs are bad. I'm only presenting a situation and seeing what people's opinions on it are.

I'm a fan of officials and have a good relationship with many of them in other leagues I coach and play in. From some of the comments I've seen here and in other posts I would say that most here at least care about their craft and that's all you can ask for.

If my presence/posts disturb you then I'm sorry.

coach-rec, Bob gave you the best advice here - talk to the league administrators. Part of the reason you may not be getting the answer(s) you want is because we hear a lot of complaints from coaches and fans about how we miss calls, cheat, etc., and in most cases it is actually a lack of understanding of the rules by those same coaches and fans that leads to their wrong conclusions. Add to that the fact that fans, coaches and players have an emotional stake in the outcome, and see things with that built-in bias, while officials (for the most part) really do not care who wins or loses.

In your example plays, are you 100% certain the defender that "came across the legs" of your player actually initiated the contact, or did your player initiate the contact and move into the defender? On the no-call at one end with the foul on the other, are you 100% certain the actions and contact were exactly the same? Did you have the same angle on both plays to be able to say for certainty they were the same? On the blocked shot, are you 100% sure the ball didn't get blocked first, then the arm was hit after? Or, did the ball get hit first, causing the shooter's arm to look like it was hit? Did you have the same look as the official on the play?

There is, of course, the other side of it, as mentioned by some of the others. Most of the time you will get less-experienced refs working rec leagues, and therefore you will get "less-experienced" calls. I can guarantee you won't find Ed Hightower or Karl Hess working any of your games. You may be able to get a slightly better level of officiating by getting the league to pay better, or by providing training to the officials that do work the league. It sounds like there isn't much in the way of proper mechanics being used, if each official stays on one end of the court for each half. They should switch positions after every foul call, and in some cases on violations. But it is well known that mechanics are a lot looser in rec leagues than they are in sanctioned games. Is there also a chance the officials working those 2 "favored" teams know the guys on those teams? Sure. But again, it's an issue that you and the league need to work out. How much more are you willing to pay to play, to allow for better pay and training for the officials? What if the guys that do work are the only ones available, since all the better officials are out working sanctioned games those nights?

Finally, what difference does it really make in the long run if you have bad officials, or if the officials make bad calls? Does your team make all it's shots? Do the officials ever have to watch your team throw the ball away with unforced errors? Will it keep you from earning a living and paying for food for your family? Will it prevent cancer from being cured? In other words, keep the rec game in perpsective - it's only a game.

What state are you in? 30-35 is good pay for rec league. Look for an influx of immigrating Louisiana officials to your area soon.

LOL! :D

That's just a sad commentary on that state of Louisiana officiating pay.

well said M&M guy. Thanks

I will happily agree with your points about perspective, emotional attachment, and angle/view and I've used some of the same points to explain to my players how they need to get over their frustration with it and focus on the things they can control.

In the end I agree with Bob's point as well and will do so. The feedback has helped and given me a few points to consider as well as a few points to bring up in the discussion with the administrator. For those that responded and participated, thank you

Did you really expect to get an "honest answer" when you are asking people to know what motivates people in an area none of us know anything about? Based on what you have said, there is no such animal in my parts as most kids are playing with schools or travel/AAU teams. And the travel/AAU model often are with officials that want to make an extra buck and do not care about mechanics or even working the game to be honest. And the suggestion that a team is favored in that setting at all to me is laughable. What the heck are they favoring someone for at all? Many probably would not even know who is playing unless they work the league all the time.

Your post does not bother me at all. Honestly I am bored which is why I commented in the first place. I just wonder what you are going to find on an internet site that you could not find out by asking the people in your area or from the officials working your games.

Peace

Best one-liner of the off-season thus far!

Watch a game between two other teams that aren't in favored status. Are both teams and coaches constantly griping at the officials? It sounds to me that if they are not switching after fouls and are staying at one end that they are picking up bad habits. The whole point of switching is so that you are not constantly at one team's offensive end as lead. Most officials that avoid rec leagues do so for reasons stated earlier. The pay is not the issue here as that is decent for the type of league it is.

Talk to the league administrator as Bob suggested. It may be best to take notes and talk after the season. And have other coaches take notes as well. Then see if your league administrator can have a meeting with the assignor. Maybe the league could pay for an observer from the association to show up once in awhile to do evaluations unannounced.

But the main reason better officials will avoid rec leagues is because the sportsmanship is often non-existent.

No I expected to get an opinion or several of them. I got plenty and some that helped.


I found quite a bit that will be useful when I talk to the administrator

1. Officials are supposed to switch responsibilities throughout the game. I did not know this so it's good to know. In non-sanctioned games though it's common for refs to be "lazy" about it.
2. I realized I'm not completely sure whether the officials are certified or not. Something to follow up on in my conversation with the administrator
3. You're bored - doesn't really help me in my league but I could not have found that out by asking local officials.
4. Apparently $30-35 per game is good pay for some areas.
(EDIT) - And reading some of the other posts in this forum is quite educational about rules, officials thinking/responsibilities, and gameplay

That's really what the forum is about. Feel free to post questions and participate in the discussion!

And take the class and the test. You might find that you enjoy it. And you certainly will learn from it.

1. Is this "league" using a running clock? If so, not switching on every foul is to conserve the players time on the court. Please dont assume the officials are just "being lazy."

2. So what if the officials arent "certified" it isnt a "certified" contest & obviously the coaches arent "certified" at the HS level either. Most certified officials that I know dont want to deal with the ignorance that goes on at these levels of play. Especially during March Madness & NBA playoff time!! IMO, you guys are watching it on tv before your game & come into the gym way too hyped up for your skill level & true abilities.

3. LOL

4. That is very decent for the off-season!


Nothing better than working with a coach that knows his stuff!!

If an official should know the rules before stepping on a court, shouldn't the coach know em too?

I'll just add that, more than the pay, the biggest obstacle you're going to have in rec leagues is atmosphere.

How are your officials treated by the coaches and fans? How are they treated by the administration? Are they backed by the administration when they have to deal with sportsmanship issues?

I'll work a game for $20 where I'm treated as a professional before I'll work a $35 game where I have to put up with coaches and fans berating me all game. Best case scenario is both.

The other thing is, if you're games are played during the sanctioned high school season, your better officials are working those games and aren't available on your nights.

I'm not saying we need a red carpet and a state room; but active and supportive game management goes a long way.

Now, you're next thread will be titled "How to deal with JRut" ;)

- I won't assume that but it is something I will ask about. My plan is to talk to the administrator who I already know has some issues with the officiating however runs into a lot of the problems you mentioned (running during season/etc...)

- I'm not saying I'm going to go in with a "prove you're certified" button or anything. It's just a point that weighs into the situation.


You make a good point here so that's something I will consider.

Jrut's ok, he's just bored. I'm considering lobbying to get him an offer to ref some of these games so I can chew his ear a little and then he won't be so bored after giving me a T :D

That's depends on the context of your actions and words. :)

Lobby all you want to, I do not work those games. I am much happier to not deal with coaches that whine about calls instead of helping kids have a good time playing a fun game.

Peace

So are saying it is a running clock or not?

Again, what does certified have to do with anything? Unless the administrator promotes the league as using certified officials only, it should not matter. Being "certified" really only means that one has passed a written test, PERIOD!

- I know a guy that couldn't pass the HS test, but can work his tail off & has since moved up to the DI level.
- I know a guy that scored 100% on the test, but cant call Lassie.
- I know guys that buy shirts with the certified patch already on it & have never taken the test. :eek:

At the end of the day, you aren't a certified coach & your players have got to put the ball in the basket!
Even US cheating refs cant stop made baskets, or can we?? :rolleyes:

I think it takes a close 2nd.
"Can't Call Lassie" is third
BUT
"Asking a nun about sex" is my winner!!!

It is a running clock until 2 minutes so I see your point on the not switching however they still switch at halftime so that the same ref is on our baseline when we're in the offensive zone so that's still confusing.

I've purposefully stayed away from my players in the discussion as I'm focused on the refs in this discussion. Since it keeps coming up though this is my advice to the players.

- You focus on the the little things, things you control like your turnovers, not letting a mistake affect the next play etc... and I'll worry about the big things (the refs, other players actions, etc....)
- I'm a firm believer that a good team that executes will nullify any ref or other team situation.
- Our team has their issues with unforced turnovers, missed layups and such. I take responsibility for it and ensure the players do as well. They have and continue to improve on it. That puts me into a spot to have to begin to deal with the big things I mentioned above, thus my questions.

It does seem odd, although I can see the logic of keeping it consistent the entire game. If they aren't going to switch during the half, anyway. It's flawed logic, but it's flawed.

Oh, my advice from your previous post: next time you get a T, shut up. Especially if you don't have an ACs.

Coach-rec,

I coach football, and ref basketball. As a coach I have learned that quite often what I "think" I see going on out on the field is not necessarily what is really happening. So I have made a "rule" for myself, my staff, my players, and my parents - we don't complain about the officiating at the game. If they want to gripe in their car, that's up to them...but not on the field, not as we are leaving the field, not in the locker room, etc., etc...I sit down on Saturday mornings and watch the game film. If there was something I was upset about Friday night, I look for it on the film. If it's there, I will shoot an e-mail (attaching the play clip helps) to the assignor and let him know about it. If it wasn't there - I am sure to let my staff and players know that it wasn't when we watch tape.

Now I know this is "only rec-league", but there's no reason why you can't do something similar. Have a parent film the games, and then watch the tape. If there's something there then you can go to the assignor. More often than not (as I have learned) you will see that you were wrong.

I appreciate that feedback. It's a plan that I will consider putting into practice.

Late to the discussion, but I like Rocky's point. Forget about understanding officiating mechanics/rules if you're just trying to prove somebody wrong (what will you say? "I know what I'm talking about b/c I read it on an internet board!")

Since you are coaching 'young men', one of the more important skills you can teach your players is how to deal with adversity (even incompetence). By remaining calm and focusing on coaching, you are setting a great example of leadership, composure and focus that they may hopefully carry into their everyday lives.

+1

Teaching life lessons through youth sports got lost along the way :(

Just FYI - our local kids rec league pays $30 for HS level games (boys and girls) to experienced officials. We work two or three games in a shift, all with a two person crew. Games are 7 minute stop time quarters with a 3 minute halftime and teams get four 30-second timeouts for the game, so the games go pretty quickly (also 15 point "mercy" rule - no back court guarding). We don't switch on every foul, but we do switch on virtually every shooting foul. On non-shooting fouls, we switch if it "makes sense" - meaning if the positioning of the refs when the foul was called makes it more logical to switch (I think you guys know what I mean). We call this "convenience mechanics". :)

Sure - we get complaints that the refs are favoring one team over the other. However, those complaints usually come from both teams. :D

Oh yeah - since we don't really designate a referee and an umpire, I always ask my partner just before tip off if he wants to throw up or have the runs. :p

So how long is overtime :D

When I have one of the coaches tell me, "Man, you sure did right by us tonight" I'll get worried

I'm sorry. I am not familiar with that term. ;)

Seriously, we don't have them at 3rd and 4th grade (games end in a tie, so be it) and we use two minutes for all other grades, if memory serves me. After two minutes, if it's still tied, the game is declared a tie. We can't "stack up" games since we are restricted as to how much gym time we have.

As to the refs being certified or not, as others have stated, it is certainly not a cure-all if they are certified. Attitude toward the game is probably more important. A state finals official may call your game one night as a favor to somebody, but think that the game is beneath him. This guy may not do the job as well on that particular night as a rookie still hungry for time on the court and striving to improve.

I bet if you filmed the games and had a "certified" official watch the film, he would not see the same things you see.

You are looking at the game from someone who has an investment.

No matter what you believe, I am going to say over 98% of all officials do not care who wins a game. And I don't know any of the maybe 2% who do care, I have never met one who does.

It's REC league. Do you really think an official would take a chance on ruining his credibility by cheating in a REC league? Why would anyone care who wins in a REC league? Referees surely do not.

Easy Answer ...
 

Nun of this. Nun of that.

Thirty Years, Lots Of Officials ...
 

Neither have I. Never.

+1

That's the oldest complaint in the book. Every coach I've ever worked sees it that way. It other words, there's very little cedibility to this complaint.

You thought it was across the arm, he said it was all ball. Are we supposed to rely solely on your response?

Just curious, do you have the same two officials for every game? Do they officiate HS games or are they two kids who work for the rec dept.?

@coach-rec. I think I understand your question about switching at half-time. Generally regardless of where an official was positioned at anytime during the 1st half, the official who went up with the jump ball will take the ball out at side court and becoming the trail official. Me personally, HS games vs rec ball I might do a little differently. Rec I will not switch on all fouls but generally ALWAYS switch on free throws depending whether I called it from the top or from the endline. Although there is no reason not to switch with a running clock because your not taking up extra time.

I'm not worried about credibility as my goal is not to get you to side with me. My goal was to get an opinion on the idea which several people gave some pretty good opinions on.

The issue in point here is not that he thought it was ball. It was the comment after to me that "your PG is soft". You can rely on whatever you want in your determination as it's my issue to deal with.

We do have the same two officails for 90% of the games except a few times over the past two years where one could not show up. In those cases another ref shows up or one of the league organizers helps out. They are men that ref in other rec leagues for the city as I've seen them refing some of the lower age group games as well. Several people have pointed out that it's tough to get good refs to coach these leagues. In a conversation yesterday I found out that the main ref that doesn't miss games and seems to favor the two teams in question was recommended by those two teams when there were issues finding refs to do it.

Coach, please realize that when you accuse him of favoring teams, you are directly saying he has no integrity. Most officials find that to be a very serious accusation.

If he's trying to say he thinks your pg should have played through some incidental contact, it makes sense. Either way, this comment is completely unprofessional for an official to make.

That's something I would address with league management.

Honestly, if things are as bad as you suggest, you might want to consider taking your kids to another league (or forming your own league.)

+1

I T'd a coach least season for insinuating that I was a cheater. No warning, no stop sign. In fact, I didn't even wait for him to finish his sentence.

I would agree with you in most cases as I stick up for these same refs myself from time to time with the parents and even the kids. My issue is that even the favored teams kids and coaches admit that these refs make up calls and "don't call anything" from time to time when it's discussed outside the environment.

I cannot disagree with you about the investment comment either however I would also say that just because I have an investment doesn't make it an absolute that what I'm saying has no merit.

I would never try and tie this issue to all officials. I'm talking about one rec league and two officials. This does not in any way represent what officials stand for as I respect what they do and agree with the comment somewhere above about when a coach says "you really did right by us" that he should be worried.

In addition to what Snaqs shared, coach, you are aware that mere contact does not constitute a foul? We referee the "result of contact" not just blowing the whistle because someone was touched on the arm.

If players dont want to be touched, I generally suggest that they look into table tennis or bowling, etc.

I realize that quite well and would hope an official would take it that way. This is why I haven't said it to his face and decided to get some other opinions on it before I made an issue of it.

I appreciate all the feedback I'm getting. In the end we have the championship game Monday against the other "favored" team so we'll see what happens. My hope and message in practice is that we should execute well enough so that no other factors, other teams performance included, can affect the outcome. They're capable so it's ultimately up to them.

Good point and I couldn't agree more. As long as it's called that way on both sides of the floor. I can give numerous examples but as others have pointed out so well there's a lot more that goes into it.

+1 Talk about good preperation & coaching!

Your player gets slapped on the arm while holding the ball prior to dribbling, but doesnt lose the ball or commit a violation because of it. Result = no whistle.

Your opponent in the same sitch, but loses the ball or commits a travel because of it. Result = foul.

Advantage/disadvantage is the name of the game.

Try looking at the result of contact on what appears to be the "same play" to you. By all means, try to post some of the plays in question on here!!

One way or the other, this should be the least of your concerns. If there truly is a conspiracy against your team, either official could have a negative bearing on the outcome from either end of the court.

Coach, I don't think you get how serious an accusation this is. Tell me I missed the call, or was in the wrong position or even that I am wrong on a rule. They might all be true.

Don't dare accuse me of favoring one team over another.

I have reffed over 300 games, a good deal of them rec ball. i have NEVER favored one team over another.

Would love to but don't have video.

I see your point on result and in a number of cases that plays a role. I can't adequately display what I'm talking about without the video and I do have a different perspective on a few things after the discussion and reading yesterday so it's just something that I have to go back, review, and move forward from there on.

But if your players have heard your message and also heard you say the refs favor the other two teams, which lesson do you think they'll learn?

Depends on if they win or lose :D

For you to be on a board like this to discuss the situations, interpretations, and understandings of the rules like you do I'm sure you take it serious and would take an accusation like that just as serious.

That doesn't mean that your standards and morals apply to every ref that's taken the test, or put on the stripes either.

You don't know who I am so there's an air of anonymity that allows me to speak my mind and talk through my thoughts without having to deal with the consequences so that plays into it a bit as well. When I walk away from this keyboard there's a much larger set of rules that dictates what comes out of my mouth.

I can understand if you're still offended by the idea that I would even mention it here. If that's true then all I can do is apologize.

The assumption there is that I voice the two out loud which I do not. I refer to my anonymity comment above in that I'm able to say more here without the consequences.

My message to the kids is that regardless of what the refs do or do not do they still have to play the game, make the baskets. We lost a game by 6 earlier in the year where they were sure the refs stole it from them and were quite pissed about it. I pointed out that we missed about 10-12 layups that had nothing to do with the refs. They shut up and since then we haven't lost.

Okay. My opinion is you're whining and complaining about the officiating because you see it from a biased standpoint.

And I understand completely why you're not concerned with whether you have any credibility or not.

The reality is most officials are competent hardworking people doing their best. Most parents and coachs are passionate people who are doing the best they can for the kids. Everyone is human and do make mistakes.

My observation, many officials dont want to admit, that there are bad officials and officials have bad days. It is obvious there are bad fans and it seems everyone but them know it.

There are towns I know that hire the same officials ( usually sub varsity ) for all their games. And these officials are well known homers. That is the way it is. I guess its their view - it is the home court advantage.

Also my experience, the younger less formailized the competition, the harder it is to officate and the worse the coaches and fans. I would much rather do a varsity game than a junior high rec game anyday.

Bulogna. I have yet to meet or talk to any official who won't admit there are bad officials.

I can't say I've ever talked to one of those guys, but you're calling them cheaters. Do you realize that?

Well known by whom? Back when I started, the jr. high schools around here almost always hired their own officials locally. It was common to give two officials their home schedule and be done with it. I have called the entire season's games for several nearby schools at one time or another, including the one closest to my home. I have been accused of calling in favor of my home school. I have been accused, just as often, of bending over backward and calling against my home school. Critiquing my own performance, I am fairly certain the latter is more of a problem.

It's all about perception.

Quote from a coach of a nearby school: (apologetically, believe it or not)

"We don't need to play against (my home school) any more with you calling. It's just not fair."

Quote from the home coach a few years earlier: (right after a close loss)

"Nobody will ever call you homer!!"

The kicker: Both quotes were by the same guy, who had transferred from one job to the other.

Well known by everyone in the league. I've heard similar comments from the two favored teams, the people that run the league, as well as other coaches and players. I found out this weekend that the main refs son plays for the team we're playing in the championship.

What You See, Is What You Get (WYSIWYG)

If everyone involved knows about it,
If the league looks the other way,
If everyone still registers their child to play,
If these officials are allowed/invited back next year.
etc., etc.

Y'all deserve each other. Next!

How is the officiating when the 2 favored teams play each other?

Haven't seen them play this year however in the past it's been more of a "no-call" event letting them play it out with a lot of contact and tough play.

Your refs like to get assigned that game because they get to nap and don't have to screw anybody.

Having observed all that has been posted here, there are some possible conclusions that one can come to regarding these particular officials. But, not having witnessed them, not knowing if they do games for assignors in non-rec-league-settings, not knowing if all they ever do or want to do are rec-league games, it is really difficult to compare them to officials that we know.

It sounds like your best course of action is to make sure your team has opportunities to play outside of that venue. That way you will not be as concerned about those two officials. If you ARE concerned with the officials in other venues, then maybe the officials are not the ones with the problem.

I just find it funny that I was being criticized for my comments early on in this thread and almost everyone since has come to the same conclusions or worse about this coach. ;)

Peace

I guess you are right, everyone knows there are officials of different quality. yet it seems like everytime someone comments about a ref, its always ignorant coaches or fans. ( not specific to the start of this post ).


It is all perception. to me yes, to them, no they are providing home court advantage. These are not the guys you are going to see in the state championships or for that matter even a varsity game. And this is that rare exception. This also doesn't meen if you do all of one teams subvarsity games you are a homer, usually the opposite. ( just ask the home coach ).

It's only because you're bored that you're the one criticized. I'd offer to get you a job in the league to solve you're boredom problems but then I'd have no where to go and complain about you.

I'm not saying they're not out there, I just don't think they're that common. Frankly, I'm more inclined to think their incompetence is usually equally spread, and if you ask the coaches from the home team they'd say the same thing.
That said, there may be an element of familiarity that provides the home team with an advantage (the players know what gets called, the officials anticipate plays more, etc.)

I don't there are too many officials (even career small town JV guys) who purposefully give calls to the home team as a "home court advantage".

What's your address? I'll send you $7.50 so you can go out an buy yourself a trophy.

Then, your life will be complete.

So you're saying the kids don't deserve an opportunity to compete? To acheive and win and to have it be on their merits? That's a surprising statement considering what I've seen from this board thus far.

But you're absolutely right. I volunteer my time, don't get to see my daughter some days, and deal with the issues that a "rec" league brings so that I can get a trophy. You got me nailed on that one.

Coach, I'm going to just add this. From the sounds of it, you at least believe these officials to be corrupt, and the organization itself doesn't seem much better. Frankly, you should be prepared to either take your team to a different league, or form such a league, if the league you're in won't listen to your comments.

If it's as widely known as you say, then I would be surprised if they listened.

No, I am saying that you are a clown for spending this much time accusing rec-league basketball officials of cheating.

Yes, I do have you nailed on this.

What the heck other reason is there for your whining ?

From the conversation here I've dulled in my stance and wouldn't use the word "corrupt". I'm not sure what word I would use at this point. It would be somewhere between 'lack of knowledge' and 'selective calls' however I'm not sure that it's worth making an issue. I'm going to have a conversation about it with the league but considering that I've already asked if it's ok for a father to ref for his sons game and was told it has to be that way because these are the refs we have I don't think anything else will matter much either.

An underlying issue is the positioning of the refs but considering the running clock and some other factors I'm not sure that's worth going into either. I'm still interested in what people's thoughts are and have generally enjoyed the discussion.

When its all said & done, cheaters never win...

Wonderful !!

Regardless of the outcome, our coach gets a trophy !! ;)

I care about the kids and don't involve myself in something without giving it my all. I promised the kids that I would look into it so I am. I also endeavor to educate myself before opening my mouth about something that I admit going into I was less than educated about. Those that have bothered to discuss it with me have shown me quite a few good points about the issue, perspective from a standpoint other than from the bench where I sit, rules and procedures surrounding the issue, and what's normal in other like leagues.

In the end I'm just sorry that I'm not as awesome as you are. I'm just a coach and by definition obviously flawed.

Several yrs ago, I had to ref my son's game.

Now, being an Asst Coach, Bookkeeper, Scoreboard OP, etc. in this league for yrs, and being well known, the coaches had no problems with this. I mean, would you like to have a state certified official who has a son playing or just one uncertified 18 yr old kid with little training or experience calling your game? As has been said here before, always bring your stuff!

Harder on him or his teammates. I dunno? Did I try to be fair? Absolutely.

One thing is certain - the first T I ever issued was against my son, in that game, for unsporting behavior......and his mom AND my parents were in the gym to see it.

It was a cold, quiet ride home in the car after that game.... :o

I guess that makes me the exception to both.
I never criticized you (not in this thread anyway), and I have not come to the same conclusion as you regarding the coach.

Wrong on both. You just have your priorites out of whack.

If you had them in order, you would have never posted this baloney to start with.

You are the typical, "I'm not blaming the official's, but....." coach / fan.

+1

Just kidding coach!! Honestly, I love the passion you have for the game.

He just wears a different hat than we do, guys. Remember how seriously you took it when youth/wreck was the highest level you worked?

Fair enough. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with an official working his son's rec game now and then, but if they're the only refs your league can get, there are problems they aren't sharing; especially if they're paying $30 / game.

My guess (and it's only a guess) is they really aren't trying to find other refs.

Other options:
1. your league has a rep among real officials for poor behavior.
2. It's a long drive from nowhere and $30 isn't enough to get good officials to drive it.
3. ????

Disagree, FWIW.

All that's left is to go out and win the game so none of this junk matters. Thanks Snagwells.

FWIW,

I don't care.

Didn't think you would, and yet it didn't stop me either.