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-   -   Double Foul During AP Throw-In (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/64890-double-foul-during-ap-throw.html)

M&M Guy Mon Mar 14, 2011 05:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 739923)
Which is why you don't go back and ask the coach what was happening when the whistle blew.

Good advice. On many levels.

Jurassic Referee Mon Mar 14, 2011 05:35pm

NFHS rules 4-36-1 and 4-36-2(b) covers it in case anybody gives a sh!t.

Jurassic Referee Mon Mar 14, 2011 05:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 739872)
Thanks. Just checking to see if RefMag had it right. They didn't.

I wonder if anyone over there ever edits their articles. That wasn't really a toughy.

Adam Mon Mar 14, 2011 05:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 739948)
I wonder if anyone over there ever edits their articles. That wasn't really a toughy.

How badly did they slice this one?

JugglingReferee Mon Mar 14, 2011 05:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 739948)
I wonder if anyone over there ever edits their articles. That wasn't really a toughy.

Someone could turn their screw ups into a job opportunity. :)

BktBallRef Mon Mar 14, 2011 06:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 739863)
Play: A1 is holding the ball out of bounds for and alternating-possession throw-in. Prior to A1 releasing the ball, A4 and B5 are called for a double foul. How is play resumed? How is the alternating-possession arrow affected?

The point of interruption is the throw-in.

Just one of the many reasons I dropped Referee.

Scrapper1 Mon Mar 14, 2011 06:41pm

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

just another ref Mon Mar 14, 2011 06:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 739991)
Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?


The double foul doesn't cause the arrow to change. The completed AP throw-in after the foul causes the arrow to change.

26 Year Gap Mon Mar 14, 2011 06:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 739991)
Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

The arrow does NOT change until AFTER a successful throw-in following the POI, unless throw-in team violates. I don't think anyone has suggested that it DOES. Although I could be confused I know that I didn't make any such claim. The new throw-in is the same as the one that was not completed due to the DF--an AP throw-in.

BktBallRef Mon Mar 14, 2011 06:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 739995)
The arrow does NOT change until AFTER a successful throw-in following the POI, unless throw-in team violates. I don't think anyone has suggested that it DOES. Although I could be confused I know that I didn't make any such claim. The new throw-in is the same as the one that was not completed due to the DF--an AP throw-in.

Agreed. It's not the same as a kicked ball violation by B.

reffish Mon Mar 14, 2011 07:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 739991)
Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

There are two separate throw-ins happening in the OP. The first throw-in is for the AP throw-in. The arrow does not move because there is a foul by either team. In this case, by both teams; a double foul. The resumption of play for a double foul is POI. Because there is no team control during a throw-in, the AP arrow is used as the POI. This AP throw-in is for the double foul, not for the original AP throw-in. Hope this helps.

Adam Mon Mar 14, 2011 07:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reffish (Post 740005)
There are two separate throw-ins happening in the OP. The first throw-in is for the AP throw-in. The arrow does not move because there is a foul by either team. In this case, by both teams; a double foul. The resumption of play for a double foul is POI. Because there is no team control during a throw-in, the AP arrow is used as the POI. This AP throw-in is for the double foul, not for the original AP throw-in. Hope this helps.

It helps, but it's wrong.

Would you go to an AP throw-in if the DF was called during a throw-in following a violation?

You really need to read the definition of POI in the book.

Raymond Mon Mar 14, 2011 07:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reffish (Post 740005)
There are two separate throw-ins happening in the OP. The first throw-in is for the AP throw-in. The arrow does not move because there is a foul by either team. In this case, by both teams; a double foul. The resumption of play for a double foul is POI. Because there is no team control during a throw-in, the AP arrow is used as the POI. This AP throw-in is for the double foul, not for the original AP throw-in. Hope this helps.

POI during a throw-in is the throw-in. The lack of team control does not affect the status of the subsequent throw-in. The administration of this play is the same in NCAA, which has TC during a throw-in, as it is in NFHS, which does not have TC during a throw-in.

Adam Mon Mar 14, 2011 07:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 739991)
Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

The rule is that the arrow changes when the throw-in is complete, correct?
If a DF is called prior to the completion of the throw-in, it was never completed. I can't imagine the rules committee wants this play to result in A getting a new throw-in and keep the arrow. They have made it clear that an AP TI is considered to be slightly different than a normal TI, so it seems logical to me to assume they would want us to return to the AP TI if a DF is called during that TI.

The only alternative is to assume the AP TI get ignored, and you return to the TI for A with the arrow not changing from A.

BktBallRef Mon Mar 14, 2011 07:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 740019)
POI during a throw-in is the throw-in. The lack of team control does not affect the status of the subsequent throw-in. The administration of this play is the same in NCAA, which has TC during a throw-in, as it is in NFHS, which does not have TC during a throw-in.

Yep.

4-36-2b
Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.


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