Tim Higgins
 

Why is this guy officiating? He cant keep up. It looks like he is really hurting. I know trying to officiate through an injury is one of the most difficult things. I dont think he should be out there, it is obvious something is wrong. Anyone know the extent of his health. I know he has to be in his 60's....maybe its just age.

Did he recently work a Fighting Pearls game?

He is officiating the Rutgers vs St.Johns game on ESPN right now.

Ah, I was just busting your chops. Should've added a smiley.

No idea if he officiated the fighting Pearls. I could careless. I am just commenting on his status and maybe someone would know his status.

Until his supervisors quit using him he is going to continue to officiate.

Like you, I sometimes see officials out there who look like they shouldn't be. But apparently they are doing enough that their supervisors feel it's better to have them out there instead of someone else.

I know. I'm with BNR on this one. He gets work because supervisors are comfortable with him and they know what they're going to get.

The Big East coaches are also comfortable with him and they want him on their games. There's more to officiating than looking pretty.

As for mightyvol? if you check his posting history, he's also crapped on Ted Hillary and Steve Welmer over the years....another two guys that were accepted. As well as a few other officials that the didn't bother to name. That's telling to me.

I just sat down and am watching and came here specifically to say something about Higgins and saw this thread.

It's painful watching him. In a system where a gimpy Higgins is seen as a better option than a few hundred other DI officials that can actually move, I think the system is seriously broken. Burr can't move that well either. But Higgins is taking inbounds from the backcourt endline from beyond the FT line as the trail....forget about adequately covering a fast break. And the extent that he's bailing on every shot tells me he knows he can't move.

I'd rather see a younger guy as much as I love watching Higgins work.

Injured but familiar, well-trusted faces > Healthy young prospects

I have accepted the fact that this is common at all levels.

And that's too bad.

Concur, but it is what it is til it aint.

Awful Game at the End
 

The game was officiated horribly at the end (last 20 seconds).

How so?

Or until a conference brings in a new supervisor.

And Higgins and Burr just let a St. John's player step out of bounds with the ball with 1.7 seconds left and the clock ran out.

I normally don't get into this, but they just put the whistles away in the last minute. And the player stepping put of bounds put a cap on it.

No call on the free throw by St. Johns with offensive "over the back". Then in the last 4.5 seconds Rutgers throws the ball long. It is intercepted and the St. John's player FIRST steps out of bounds with 1.7ish seconds left and THEN travels as well without any whistle. The horn then sounds and the game is over. The last part is the kicker for me. I can accept the no call on the over the back some days

It sure looked like the Rutgers player got hammered on that inbound pass, too.

St John's vs Rutgers(remarkably bad)
 

Oh my word.....Did anyone see this?

1) Pretty clear foul on St John's defender when Rutgers kid drove

2) Glaringly obvious over the back(St John's player fouling Rutgers player) right after that on the attempted rebound off of the missed St John's free throw.

3) On the final play, St John's intercepted the half court throw, traveled, then went out of bounds with at LEAST 1.6 on the clock...but he probably travled before that. How is there no whistle when a guy goes out of bounds right in front of an official?

I am not from the Northeast and have exactly no rooting interest in this game.

It was a horrible, horrible ending. Wow!

Yes that as well. I didn't have a good look at it with the camera angle

Check the Tim Higgins thread......already being discussed.

I liked the no call on point 1. It seemed the offensive player jumped into the defensive player looking for the contact.

So...you're not an official? :cool:

Perhaps these are the moments that will bring about a change...

"over the back?" WTH is that?

I can understand the rest, but why in the world is an official upset about a someone not calling "over the back?"

Correction - a no call on a suspected "push".

Thank you. ;)

I hope. I am not a fan of Higgins or especially Burr. I respect them for their years and dedication to the game and officiating, but its hard for me to watch them. Especially the way Burr signals his visible counts and starts to walk up court before the ball is ever inbounded

Your welcome. :)

* you're

This is the part that I particularly don't like from him and Higgins. A few years ago in the NIT championship one of them missed an obvious elbow on an inbound play. The opponent retaliated with a push for which an intentional foul was whistled.

Correction again - You're welcome

I wonder if I can get college credit for these grammatical lectures

Position is the key and look what happens when you are out of such position

They missed a call...badly...at the end. There's no real excuse and I guarantee that no one will feel as bad as the guys that missed it. Before that it was just a typically officiated Big East game imo. The officiating wasn't a factor up to that point.

when one is out of such position
________
LIVE SEX

My version might be grammatically wrong, but at least it sounds better in my opinion

I call softball, and just lurk over here. My question: if you had gotten the out of bounds call would you give a technical for a player who was throwing the ball believing the game to be over?
________
Sweetbabyxxx cam

Maybe DOG. If the OOB violation was called the player reaction probably wouldn't have followed. If he was protesting a call then no doubt, but in this situation I wouldn't penalize him with a tech.

+1

We've beaten this game to death on the other thread, but I hadn't seen this play mentioned. To me, this was the one great no call in the entire sequence. The defender had great position and the Rutgers kid initiated all the contact. He was trying to sell a foul, but the crew wasn't buying.

DoG? You mean the warning? Which of the four does this fall under?

Haven't seen the plays, but judging by the comments, you're wrong on #1.
#2 indicates you're not really an official.

I thought number two was properly called as simply an out of bounds, BTW.

I thought the foul was on the long inbounds pass where it looked like the Rutgers player got clocked.

adams responds
 

adams responds
 

I'll wait for the movie.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YlOWkNBxlTo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

No...because he might have been throwing the ball in the air to try and waste the last 2 seconds on the clock. That's a fairly common tactic.

I wouldn't call anything in the situation. It shouldn't be a DOG so I don't know why I wasn't thinking. I guess the fact that he threw the ball into the air thus delaying any such action until the ball is retrieved is what I was thinking about

I was hoping for the "over the back" call that's being discussed, but as for the OOB at the end, I'd say their only hope is that the clock on the court is about 1.7 seconds faster than the one we're seeing on the broadcast.

Makes sense.

Actually, a T would be for delaying the game by preventing the ball from being made live. There's no mechanism for a warning on this one.

That said, I wouldn't call this one either, unless he did it signficantly after I blew my whistle for the violation and it actually delayed the throw-in.

That final 20 seconds was horrendous.

1. On the drive, I definitely think there was a foul on the defender. Hands and arms were nowhere near vertical.

2. I think there should have been a whistle on the missed free throw and rebound. I think the reason the rebounder falls out of bounds is due to a push from the defender.

3. I think the initial play on the deep pass was fine. But the missed travel AND the out of bounds was BAD. He (the player) was out of bounds far enough that both the lead and trail could of gotten it. Plus the center has a clear view of the player and can see the steps.

I don't have a foul. There was no travel. He gained possession with one foot on the floor and then stepped OOB.

How come the talking heads at ESPN or the other clown colleges never pick out the less controversial quote as their headline? As in:
NCAA official head: "One bad call doesn't knock a guy out of the NCAA tournament."

Hell, if everybody who had a badly missed call in D1 this year was eliminated from the tournament, they wouldn't be able to cover the preliminary games, let alone the first round.

Yes, they booted the hell out of the call. But please try to keep it in perspective.

JMO

In the video, Timmy managed to beat the young guy (Walton) in the race to the locker room.

No. He thought the game was over and was excitied. No T.

Exactly ... There was NO TRAVEL. Can't somebody tell Digger Phelps and the gang this!

Does a defender have to keep their hands vertical when the shooter is jumping forward into them?

Imo the good officials at that level just won't reward any shooter that jumps into a defender and initiates the contact. And that was my impression on seeing the original play as well as the replay.

I see why both of these were not called. The rebounding looked like players were falling over each other and am not sure a foul should have been called there. Not saying it was right, just saying I see why it was not called when bodies are all going for the ball.

When they showed the angle from the basket, I do not think that was a travel. He stepped out of bounds for sure, but that would have nullified a travel as the out of bounds took place first.

All I will say is two of these guys on this game have not worked past the first weekend or at all since Mr. Adams has taken over from Mr. Nichols. I will just leave it at that.

Peace

I see that play called all the time at the D1 level and no one bats an eye....by those same guys.

Just curious and trying to learn -- what's the rule? I know there's a rule for DoG that requires a warning first. And I know that there are admin techs that can be given to "followers" for preventing the ball from being made live. But what's the rule that would allow a T for a checked in player throwing the ball into the stands during a time out if no warning had been given?

Edit -- sorry, don't know why I said "time out". I meant after the violation.

That was my impression. And it does not look like the arms made contact, but the contact was all with the chest.

Peace

Going back and seeing the final play, I can see why a travel wasn't called by the center. I'd be fine with the no call. Still don't know how the trail and lead miss the out of bounds call.

Just to throw my two cents in watching this. I had no foul in the loose ball and no travel. The player does appear to step out of bounds at 1.7 seconds. It appears to me all three officials assumed the game was just going to end. The trail official should have been "in the game" and noticed the OOB call.
As for each official, this one terrible ending to a game shouldn't affect their tournament eligability. Jim Burr is good but nearing his career. I'd still put him in the tournament, if only for the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Tim Higgins needed to retire years ago in my opinion. It's hard watching him try to get into position all game long. I wouldn't have him in the tournament as has been the case in recent years. Earl Walton should remain tournament eligable (and wasn't in position to make the OOB call).
This just doesn't look very good for NCAA officials.

Whose call was it? Burr or Higgins?

I totally agree with you about the OOB call. That should not have been missed.

Peace

Maybe they are trying to make the point that even if you don't have him out of bounds, you should have a walk?

On the one replay I saw, it did look like the third step landed before he released the ball, but I only saw it once.

Hell, I don't think anybody could ever argue that. But...it happens.

The two officials you are talking about have not work pass the first weekend (and one game at that) for the passed couple of years. Not sure this game was going to change that.

I would not go as far as say it looks bad on NCAA officials but looks bad on these officials and their conference. If they are not working much more I do not see this as an issue at all. What looks bad is we have commentators that comment about things they have no idea about. Because if it was a travel, say why it was a travel. But then again the public thinks that "3 steps" is illegal when it is not.

Peace

Of course it happens, even to me. ;)

Peace

Ignoring the OOB issue and the clock -- that is if the play had been in bounds and with time on the clock -- don't you think it was a travel? Again, I only saw it once, but it looked to me as though he gathered, landed on one foot, and returned that pivot before tossing the ball into the crowd (which, in this case, occurred in 3 steps).

If all the announcers are saying is effectively, "even if it was in bounds, it looked like a travel," is that a problem?

You cannot have a travel when the players are out of bounds. And I did see it more than once. ;)

The question is when did he actually have the ball? He knocked the ball down to the floor when he first had the ball.

The commentators (Digger Phelps) said that they missed a travel and an out of bounds call. The travel they want is questionable if not there at all. And when you say he took three steps when the third step was out of bounds you cannot have it both ways. Yes, it is a problem when the public does not understand the rules and you tell everyone the incorrect ruling. So when we get to our games and I have to explain to a coach that I do not call steps, I call traveling based on the actions of the pivot foot that is what causes confusion for everyone. Kind of like the moving screen I had a coach want called last week and the screen did not cause any contact and the defender moved with the screener, but yet a coach wanted a foul called when no illegal contact took place. Yes, that is wrong. And he said that 3 officials missed it. Three officials are not looking at this play. Maybe two of them were, but more likely 1 in this specific play.

Peace

It was at mid court table side. They were both at/around opposite endlines. The pass went long, but all the action being discussed happened at mid court table side. Both appeared to be screened out by bench personnell. The "C"'s body language was "Something funky just happened but I am not sure what" and looks at both officials as he heads across the court. I don't have faces to go with names, but one of the officials was much quicker to the locker room tunnel than the other two.
My take away from this is: If guys at THAT level can make mistakes like that, I feel much better about the mistakes I make at my level!:D

From Mr. Adams:

Adams seems like a jerk -- praising Burr (who as the trail missed this call) and essentially throwing the other two under the bus. What's really comical is that it sounds like he commented without even seeing the play.

Since it is common for coaches to go out on the court during playing time and not be sanctioned, I could see how the officials would be screened out.

Next, I expect a coach to set up a screen while going on to the court.

Thanks for the answer. I think part of the problem with Digger or others understanding travelling is that "pivot" is a horrible word that is inaccessible to most non-officials. The concept of pivoting has a common sense meaning of rotating on a fixe point. I would guess most non-officials only understand the concept of a pivot foot in the situation where the ball is caught with both feet on the ground and then one is lifted, because that looks like what we think of as a "pivot."

I'm sure Digger and most fans would be suprised to learn of the concept of a pivot foot when, for example, a player is running forward. I think travelling is hard enough for many to understand because of the different ways to travel -- sometimes a player can move a great distance with the ball without travelling and sometimes a tiny movement can be a violation and that confuses people. Add in the word "pivot" and it's hopeless.

+1

On this one, the play was coming right at Burr on the sideline as new L on the turnover. Higgins was T at the other end on the same sideline. Earl Walton was the C across the court. There's nowayinhell Walton was involved in an OOB call on the far sideline. He shouldn't be part of the conversation imo.

Bottom line is they just missed the call. Contrary to the thinking of fans and talking heads, officials really are human and do recognize they'll screw one up every now and then. Unfortunately the circumstances make this particular call stand out. If it happens at 3:32 of the first half, no one is talking about it.

I haven't seen that, but I have seen a coach reach out with their clipboard to "steal" the ball from a player coming up the sideline!

I assume you mean that if a bad mistake happens at 3:32 of the first half, not this particular play, no one would talk about it.

Even with 3:32 left in the first half, I'm guessing that if a player with possession of the ball steps out of bounds and then launches the ball into the crowd and none of the officials call OOB, some people might talk about it. :)

+1 It sounded like he was "protecting" Burr and seemed a bit too defensive IMO

ESPN Scroller - Big East acknowledges two officiating errors at the end of the game......

Who are "they?"

Are "they" the Assignors who want Higgins and Burr to work for them or the Leagues and coaches who request they work their games?

Just curious.

As long as there are assignors and coaches that are comfortable with both officials, then we'll be seeing both of them next year...on ESPN weekly. All Adams has the power to do is not select either for the dance.

I was the one who started the Tim Higgins thread. I can only hope he steps away the game has passed him by. Otherwise, I am blind in one eye and cant see out of the other. Its time.

Lets just say that's there's a helluva lot better chance of us seeing Higgins on ESPN than seeing you or mightyvol anywhere.

They missed a call. You haven't? Get over it.

It's that time of year. :rolleyes:

Digger Phelps and the boys on ESPN are hammering them about suspensions for the rest of the Big East Tourney, injuries, age and being slow, being over worked and out position.

Everyone pile on now......

Just saw the Rutgers coach who was interviewed and he made what I thought were the right noises (basically that a mistake was made, that he made several mistakes as did his players during the course of the game). Nice to see at least one person keeping his head during what many will be going nuts about.

And you're proud of that? You're also the one who's crapped all over Ted Hillary, Steve Welmer and a few other officials in the course of your posting history.

What D1 conferences have you worked in?

A good share of bigjake's threads deal with concerns he has about certain officials. I think he wants to skenk their games from them.

I wouldn't say Adams is a jerk but I do agree that his comments were inappropriate. He should have "no commented" all 3 officials and saved his comments for Art Hyland.

I know Mike Rice very well from my coaching days. I was a varsity assistant and our HC had close ties to him and I coached at his Eastern Invitational camps for several summers.

In the few times I've seen him since I stopped coaching he's given me a hard time about my choice to officiate. But he is a very good coach and "gets it" when it comes to how hard officiating really is. I imagine he could be a handful during games b/c he likes to talk and drops F bombs in just about every sentence. But that's when he's talking to other coaches and just in general. I've never been around him when he's coaching a real game.

As for the crew, I have no clue how much impact this will have on their officiating futures. This was a pretty bad miss in a relatively big spotlight. We all miss calls but as John Adams said, "not officiating to the end of a game is unacceptable." It will be interesting to see the ramifications from this.

Like

What makes you think Art Hyland wouldn't want them working in the conference next year?

Only 3 Jakes on Statsheet. Only one worked in the OVC. I doubt Dr. Jake Bell would take time from supervising the A-Sun to come here and bang on officials.

Any one mention that the two coaches did not coach until the end of the game either.

You do sound like a big prick.

I guess I wonder why Adams has an opinion at all. This is a *conference* matter and it would've been nice to see the conference supervisor interviewed instead of him. As long as officials are independent contractors and not employees of the NCAA, the only thing Adams can do is not hire these guys for the tourney.

What would you call someone who would make comments like this *without ever seeing the play or even a recording of the play*?