Substitute player for free throws

[radiomouth]

Friday night I broadcast a Kansas High School sub-state semi-final with a bizare ending. Already in overtime, score tied 68-68, home team misses final shot and in scrum for loose ball on floor, H23 fouls V33. I look to clock which reads 0.0, then back to the floor to see an official signal technical foul. Tech is 5th foul on V33 and he goes to bench. Officials gather to discuss situation before going to scorers stand, then bring both coaches together, then V5 enters the game to shoot free throws for V33 who is on their bench. Misses them both. H11 goes to their line and misses first technical shot and makes second for the winning point.
I was unsure of the rule for substitute of player that fouled out and was unable to shoot the free throws for the personal foul by H23. Did opposing Coach get to pick that substitute as if it was an injured player replacement, or did V Coach pick him? Great pick by H Coach, poor choice if V Coach if that was the situation.

[APG]

The opposing coach under high school rules NEVER selects who the replacement shooter is. In this case, the visiting head coach chose his shooter and the home coach chose his.

[Adam]

In high school (NFHS) rules, the substitute shoots these free throws.
In NCAA, the opposing coach would choose the shooter from the other 4 players who were playing at the time of the foul.

I'm not aware of any rule set that allows the opposing coach to pick from the bench.

[Adam]

And whether it was a poor choice depends on a few more factors aside from whether the shots were made.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not aware of any rule set that allows the opposing coach to pick from the bench.

Under NBA rules, the opposing head coach selects the replacement shooter from the bench when the situation warrants it.

[jTheUmp]

I don't have my rulebook/casebook with me, but let's see if I can figure this out without them.

Two important concepts at work here:
1) Fouls (and penalties) are administered in the order in which they occurred.

2) If a player is unable to shoot any foul shots to which they are entitled due to injury or disqualification or whatever), then that player's replacement must shoot the foul shots.


So the order of events goes like this:
V33 is fouled.
V33 receives a technical foul, which V33's 5th foul, causing V33 to be disqualified from further participation in the game.
The V coach picks V5 to replace V33, as V33 has been disqualified.

H5 shoots, and misses, 2 shots for the common foul.
H11 takes the two shots for the technical foul. Misses one, makes second, ballgame.

Nowhere in the NFHS rules is there a situation where the opposing coach can make playing decisions for the other team, so I'm not sure where you would get that idea.


Now, as an advanced question:
If V11 had missed both technical foul shots, do you start overtime with V getting possession due to the technical foul penalty, or do you go to the AP arrow?

[dsqrddgd909]

radio, what part of Kansas?

[APG]

Penalties never carry over to the next period or half.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

In NCAA, the opposing coach would choose the shooter from the other 4 players who were playing at the time of the foul.

The opposing coach only selects a shooter when an injury takes place. Because this is a disqualification, the substitute (shooter's coach selects) would shoot the free throws.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Now, as an advanced question:
If V11 had missed both technical foul shots, do you start overtime with V getting possession due to the technical foul penalty, or do you go to the AP arrow?

1. Penalties never carry over into the next period.

2. Have you ever seen an OT started with an AP throw-in?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

The opposing coach only selects a shooter when an injury takes place. Because this is a disqualification, the substitute (shooter's coach selects) would shoot the free throws.

Good catch, thanks.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Now, as an advanced question:
If V11 had missed both technical foul shots, do you start overtime with V getting possession due to the technical foul penalty, or do you go to the AP arrow?

The technical foul and the penalty are part of the 4th quarter.

You never start an OT with the AP.

Start the OT with a jump ball.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

I don't have my rulebook/casebook with me, but let's see if I can figure this out without them.

Two important concepts at work here:
1) Fouls (and penalties) are administered in the order in which they occurred.

2) If a player is unable to shoot any foul shots to which they are entitled due to injury or disqualification or whatever), then that player's replacement must shoot the foul shots.


So the order of events goes like this:
V33 is fouled.
V33 receives a technical foul, which V33's 5th foul, causing V33 to be disqualified from further participation in the game.
The V coach picks V5 to replace V33, as V33 has been disqualified.

V5 shoots, and misses, 2 shots for the common foul.
H11 takes the two shots for the technical foul. Misses one, makes second, ballgame.

Nowhere in the NFHS rules is there a situation where the opposing coach can make playing decisions for the other team, so I'm not sure where you would get that idea.

Fixed one typo that you made.

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Now, as an advanced question:
If V11 had missed both technical foul shots, do you start overtime with V getting possession due to the technical foul penalty, or do you go to the AP arrow?

Because there was a personal foul in this instance which MUST be considered part of that extra period for which the penalty had not been administered--the FTs--the subsequent technical foul also occurs during this same period--BY RULE. As no part of any penalty may carry over from one period to the next, had the score remained tied the next extra period would have begun with a jump ball.

Note that had there not been a personal foul and only a technical foul following the expiration of time in the extra period, that foul would be part of the NEXT extra period and the penalty would be enforced to begin it. So if the technical foul shooter were to make either or both of the FTs attempts, the next extra period would still be played in its entirety. The team would not win right at that point.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1. Penalties never carry over into the next period.

2. Have you ever seen an OT started with an AP throw-in?

On point #2, all I can say is D'OH. I knew that... next time I won't try to post while trying to get out the door at work.

[radiomouth]

Sub-State game hosted in East-Central Kansas. Burlington vs Central Heights.